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Old 06-19-2011, 04:03 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by Sonnypie View Post
Dead criminals are never repeat offenders.
No argument there.

Originally Posted by Sonnypie View Post
And that is based on experience.
Respectfully sir, what kind?

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Old 06-19-2011, 04:11 PM   #42
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teaching someone to shoot until the threat is dead will land you in jail? i do not understand unless hes telling them to reload and shoot again.then that might be a little unethical but a threats a threat until the threat is dead or gone.i tell my wife and kids the same thing if your afraid for your life then eliminate the problem.
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Old 06-19-2011, 05:10 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by rifleman1 View Post
teaching someone to shoot until the threat is dead will land you in jail? i do not understand unless hes telling them to reload and shoot again.then that might be a little unethical but a threats a threat until the threat is dead or gone.i tell my wife and kids the same thing if your afraid for your life then eliminate the problem.
Yes it will. Stoping a threat is NOT The same as killing an assailant. First off you do NOT shoot to kill, you shoot to stop a threat to yourself or others (of course you are shooting for vital stuff so the threat is ended as swiftly as possible). If the perpetrator dies it is an unfurtunate by-product of your need to use deadly force to defend yourself. If you make a statement to the police that you "shot to kill" the assilant you will be having a REALLY deep conversation with the folks in the DA office in the comapny of a very expensive lawyer.

I, like any sane person who has taken on the responsibility of armed self defense, subscribe to the notion of shooting enough to stop the threat which means whatever it takes. I have also studied and seeked PROFESSIONAL advice on what my rights and duties are as an armed citized.

But in specificaly addressing this statement:

While the perp is rolling around, put a round (or a clip) in the head.

THAT is an execution and it will land you in JAIL. Once an asssailant is no longer in a position to continue his attack, if he is still alive you can NOT, in his words "finish him off" If you do you are going to JAIL.

This is more than a disagreement in opinion. HIS advice or "teachings" will get someone dumb enough to take it at face value in REALLY deep trouble if they ever carry it out...

In the thread about the drug store guy that just got convicted and sent to jail for life for doing just that he stated he would have gotten rid of the tape. So now on top of recommending an execution (which the investigating team will recognize as such in one heartbeat) he's also promoting destruction of evidence (again another tidbit the folks with shields will ask about the second they see the video cameras in the store) to go on top of that charge which agravates the case against you even MORE! It scares the crap out of me that he says he is "teaching" this tuff. There are many newbies reading things like that on forums and believing they come from someone with credibility...
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Old 06-19-2011, 06:24 PM   #44
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No where did I say to reload.
But I do advise that the threat be dead.

Fair question. The answer is a bit long, but briefly:
I was raised around shooting and hunting. I shot High Power (30-06 at 200 yards) when I was 13 or 14.
I raised my 3 kids to be able to do the same. I always emphasized safety first, and that if you point a gun at anything, you intend to kill it.
Target, can, dirt clod, or living thing.
One of my Son's was involved in a Home Invasion robbery. 3 good sized criminals smashed a sliding glass door and were upon him and his Fiance before he could hardly get to his feet.
One poked a 12 gauge shotgun against his chest. The other two jumped on his fiance and began beating her.
"Dad, for a second I thought it was over, I'm dead!" he told me.
But I guess my survival instincts kicked in. He grabbed the barrel and wound up behind the thug, with the shotgun against the guys throat in a choke fashion.
The two 17 year olds in the home came running, one with a baseball bat. The resulting melee was really bad. When one of the 17 year olds got his brains bashed half out of his head with his own bat, the Son's adrenalin kicked in.
He had wrestled the perp to where he was near his gun safe in the closet. When he saw his to-be step-son with his brains hanging out, he literally threw the guy back acrossed the room.
That gave him moments to 1. Get the key off the top. 2. Unlock the safe. 3. Get the Browning High Power 9mm I had given him 5 months before from my collection.
The other 17 year old (a friend) yelled out "Shannon's got his gun!"
That sent the 3 criminals into flight.
The Son in pursuit, he doesn't want to fire because he does not know where the fiance was. When he rounded the corner of the hall way he saw two big dark figures collide and bounce back into the room. He began firing.
He told me "I could tell I was hitting by the way their bodies were jerking around."
They manged to get outside and the Son followed cutting his feet badly on the broken glass.
He fired one more shot as they rounded the corner of the house. Then as he rounded the corner he saw one dark figure ahead of him. He drew down, and the training kicked in, focus, pause, fire.
He hit the figure center mass and the 9mm P++ took the heart out of the chest. The guy made it about 12 feet and fell like a tree face first on the road. The Son ran to the road and saw the perp with the shotgun round the corner and go out of sight.
The Son checked the fallen one and could see he was dead.
"Here I am! Come and get me!" he yelled into the night. Just then, the 3rd one tried to run from his hiding place by a bush, acrossed the road, and he collapsed into a large manzanita bush.
The Son ran up to where he collapsed and the guy pleaded, "I'm hurt, I'm hurt." The Son saw he was no threat and not going anywhere. He told him to "Stay there and don't get up!"
He could hear a siren coming and as he stepped back onto the road a cop car slid around the corner code 3. As the cop came to a sliding stop near the dead guy, my Son laid the gun down, stepped back and laid down face first spread eagle.
Then his Fiance ran up and he told her to GET ON THE GROUND! NOW!

The first ambulance hauled the bush guy to the local hospital. DOA, he bled out from 5 leg wounds. (Probably a femoral artery)
The dead one in the road had 2 wounds. One just above the buttocks, and one threw the heart.
About 5 hours later, the Grandmother of the DOS criminal called the police and turned in #3.

"I didn't want to kill those guys, Dad." He said tearfully.
"Of course not. But you saved everybody in the house." I told him.
"What you taught us to do is what saved us." he said.
"No. You saved them. You did what you had to when it had to be done."

The detectives, the police officers, a second counties investigators, AND the FBI... ruled it self defense.
Perp #3 is doing 8 in Folsom Prison for Home Invasion.
The shotgun was found in a field near the Grandmother's home 2 weeks later. It had been stolen from another home invasion where an 80 year old man had been beaten near to death. The old man was still in the hospital.
Forensics found skin from my Son's thumb in the receiver of it from when he had stuck his thumb in to stop the guy from jacking a shell in during the fight.

I can't get back to the actual newspaper article. But Elizabeth Larson (reporter) gave the best factual coverage of the incident.
Here is a little.
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Old 06-19-2011, 07:54 PM   #45
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Sounds like they want to hang him out to dry for Justifiable Homicide
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Old 06-19-2011, 08:37 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by armsmaster270 View Post
Sounds like they want to hang him out to dry for Justifiable Homicide
It was December 7th, 2005.
A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away...
Just a way to prove I wasn't BSing anyone.
I don't bring it up unless asked.

That one is now in Prison. He seemed to slide downhill after the home invasion.
A lot of crap that doesn't matter now. He wouldn't leave the area no matter how I tried to get him out of there.
He killed a guy with a knife in a fight over a female dog in 2009. He was 35 years old. Stupid, stupid, and stupid. Got 15 years.

According to CaptianTango, I reckon I failed.
According to me, the man chose a bad destiny.
Time marches on.

I stand by what I say. If you pick up a weapon, you chose deadly force.
Not something half-way.
If somebody breaks into your castle, it is not a social visit.
I, for myself, will do my best to win. Not "bird shot" from a pistol.
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Old 06-19-2011, 08:54 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Wambli View Post
I guess one of your dsciples is that drug store dude that just got sent to jail for life... PLEASE stop "teaching". You have no clue of the legal ramifications of what you are telling the uneducated that listen to you...
Wambli, it's nearly impossible to convince people that are vendictive that it is wrong to play God. For some reason there are those under the impression that a civil lawsuit or a missing DVD player justifies the taking of life of another person. There is also sometimes a misguided mentality that civillian gun owners are allowed to delve out justice as they see fit. Unfortunately, we as firearms enthusiasts all are shamed by the one individual who seeks to make someone else pay for their crime on the spot OR they are so paranoid that they go ahead and snuff the life out of bad guys (even after the BG's are clearly immobilized and no longer a threat). An FTF mod here posted a sticky stating that it was a good idea to tie someone up after shooting them AND that it is a good idea to perform fake CPR on the "perpetrator" while the cops arrive. All in the same post. I'm not kidding. Go take a look in the Concealed Carry thread sticky. I'm not a single bit surprised to see someone else onbaord condone shooting past the point of stopping the threat.
After all, having a gun grants you the right to decide when it's time for someone else to die right? Why not make yourself judge, jury and executioner? It's easy! Nobody else will mind that you are bypassing the 6th Amendment and murdering a bad guy. There won't be any witnesses then right? That surely means the rest of the evidence won't even be considered? An empty shotgun and a bad guy that looks like hamburger won't strike anyone as odd, will it? Nah. Heck, who would question the need to do that?
Just don't be surprised when a jury decides you won't mind losing all those Amendments as a Felon... But hey! When the needle is buried in your skin and the spectators watch you fade away (or you are rotting in prison), you can take solace in the fact that the bad guy never had a chance to get away and incriminate you. Incriminate you against what? I have no Earthly clue! Anyway, God will appreciate the fact that you stopped the threat AND then went one step further and took your vengence out on somone that broke into your house right???
Give a man a match and he'll be warm for a few seconds. Light him on FIRE and he'll be warm for the rest of his life!

Last edited by fixxer; 06-19-2011 at 11:37 PM.
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Old 06-19-2011, 09:32 PM   #48
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sonnypie; if,and only if, you found yourself in the impossible to imagine situation of having to face baddy with NOTHING but a snake pistol and birdshot what would you do? READ CAREFULLY BEFORE YOU ANSWER
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Old 06-20-2011, 04:42 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Sonnypie View Post
Maybe YOU don't shoot to kill.
But I NEVER point a weapon at ANYTHING I do not intend to kill. Nor have I ever wavered from that. I have taught that.
A firearm, ANY firearm, can be a deadly weapon. It is up to the one holding it.
By itself, it is a piece of precision machinery laying there.
Picked up, it becomes a deadly weapon.

If you are alive and the threat is dead, you win.
If you are dead and the threat is alive, you lose. And the next victim gets to deal with the criminal.

You sound like some jailhouse (s_ithouse?) lawyer to me.
Or somebody that will be heading to court for spraying "bird shot" into some criminals eyes and blinding him.
I'm quite done with you. Are you sure you aren't a bleeding heart liberal?
BTW, go get Google spell checker so you don't appear as emotionally charged (d-u-m-b) as you are.
That is MY opinion.

Happy Fathers Day!
If I was really an emotional person I might actually be affected by what you say but to be perfectly clear Iím only taking the time to address this because many newbies read these forums looking for good information and we owe it to them to not let this type of nonsense go unchallenged. Iím not trying to change your mind. Actually I could not care less about you or your opinions. I do hope some others will read the exchange and actually be prompted to do their homework on the subject.

What you spew is not an opinion, it is extremely dangerous counsel. You are too dense to see the ridiculousness of your advice and to be quite blunt you are EXACTLY the bad caricature that the liberal left has constructed to show what they perceive the American gun owner to be. Your mix of mall ninja bravado and bad gun store counter advice is frightening. Quite frankly Iím surprised you didnít throw in the old ďIf you shoot them outside make sure you drag them back inside the houseĒ into your lesson plan too. Iím sure given enough time you would have.

YOU are the reason those liberals out there are screaming for more gun control because they fear this country will turn into the wild west if more folks are armed. I can't believe you are actually telling folks in an open forum on the internet and apparently "teaching" to whatever mouth breathers see you as a subject matter expert, that executions are the way to go when shooting for self defense. You are actually dumb enough to put all this in writing for the entire universe to read and you even go as far as saying that you'd be ok with tampering with evidence and suggesting ways to lie to a jury to justify your misguided psychotic logic. And I quote: "He started to get up, so I shot him one more time. I was afraid." Are you for real? Has that ever worked outside of bad movies? If you ever have to stand in front of a jury you can be sure that in this information age all your sage wisdom stored here in these posts will be brought up by the DA and will be admissible in court to show your premeditated intent.

You are quite possibly the dumbest person I have ever encountered in one of these forums. PLEASE do yourself and others a favor and go get some education on this subject from someone that actually knows what they are doing before you or the folks you "teach" end up in prison. Go scrape together a couple of hundred dollars and see a criminal lawyer and ask them what they think of your logic and the "defense" you are going to use when questioned by a DA.

NOW Iím done with youÖ
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Old 06-20-2011, 05:00 AM   #50
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Can we please dial this down and get rid of the insults?

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