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Old 10-16-2012, 11:38 PM   #31
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I think you guys are all missing the boat as to who & why many favor restricted gun ownership. The local leaders aren’t fostering it upon unwilling constituents. Their constituents put them in office, on purpose.

And why do they do that you may ask?

Because armed robbery, murder & assault, domestic violence, ‘accidents’, and other armed violence aren’t abstractions to many. It happened to a few, many know someone it happened to personally, most know of someone it has happened to, and all know it happens ‘all the time’ because of media reports.

What DOESN’T happen all the time to people, at least not in their neighborhood, is governmental tyranny. Soldiers haven’t been quartered in their homes against will. The government hasn’t hauled droves of people away in the middle of the night. Unless they’re a refugee or immigrant from some crazyland somewhere, they haven’t experienced gross governmental tyranny, at least not to their perception, distracted as they are by our circus every four years.

Thus armed violence is a daily reality in many of their lives. Governmental tyranny is not. Given their REALITY of civilian on civilian armed violence vs. the ABSTRACTION to them of obvious tyranny, they chose to try and limit their actual reality vs. the possibility of the abstract.

They perceive 'western style justice’, not to mention criminals, to be a greater risk to them than tyranny. Unless you live(d) there, under their reality, who’s to say they’re wrong.

Just as I wouldn’t want someone from away telling me how my community should be run, I wouldn’t presume to tell others how their communities should be run.

For better or worse, it’s their call, and they live with the consequences of it.

Politicians, Bloomberg or others, are just the middle men.
You're right. They simply follow the money. Right now I agree with the money being pursued by conservatives a little more. It's a shame that we can't have a politician like Gary Johnson, or Ron Paul, or his son Rand.

What makes me HATE Bloomberg is that he openly pushes his socialist policies, and seemingly believes his own B.S.
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Old 10-24-2012, 07:14 PM   #32
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1) I bear no grudge or disagreement with this position. It is both wise and likely to keep you out of a discussion with the cops.

But I have to ask.

Do you, therefor, feel no level of requirement to do "something" in the event the person in question is spraying up the area?

Example: You are in the parking lot of your local Gas-n-Sip and there is a pick up game next door in a public park. As you are getting out of your truck to go into the store, a car pulls up and one or two heavily armed shooters get out and start spraying up the players and the people watching.

There is no "right" or "wrong" answer, just merely wondering.


It's an interesting question, Dillinger, and I'm sorry it's taken me so long to return to this thread. My answer is: it depends. I have to assess what my chances are and I have to do it fast. You say "one or two heavily armed shooters." That's pretty vague. I take "heavily armed" to mean multiple firearms and plenty of ammo. With my carry .45 or .357 am I going up against two guys with semi-auto rifles and handguns? I'm not sure I'd want a piece of that. And what's the approach like, what kind of cover do I have going from the parking lot and getting into a position from which I can shoot effectively? If I'm just going to get shot down like a dog I'm not helping anybody. That having been said, if I think after assessing the situation that I can end the threat and save lives without getting myself killed, I'm in. There are a lot of "ifs."
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Old 10-24-2012, 07:23 PM   #33
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It's an interesting question, Dillinger, and I'm sorry it's taken me so long to return to this thread. My answer is: it depends. I have to assess what my chances are and I have to do it fast. You say "one or two heavily armed shooters." That's pretty vague. I take "heavily armed" to mean multiple firearms and plenty of ammo. With my carry .45 or .357 am I going up against two guys with semi-auto rifles and handguns? I'm not sure I'd want a piece of that. And what's the approach like, what kind of cover do I have going from the parking lot and getting into a position from which I can shoot effectively? If I'm just going to get shot down like a dog I'm not helping anybody. That having been said, if I think after assessing the situation that I can end the threat and save lives without getting myself killed, I'm in. There are a lot of "ifs."
Totally fair answer and thanks for getting back to the discussion.

My overall point is that everyone carries for a reason. When I carry, I do so with the intent that IF I can end a threat and not "get shot down like a dog" as you have indicated, I will forever feel responsible IF I did not do so.

Again, there is no right or wrong answer. No one is required to do a damn thing just because they were there. Sometimes the best course of action is to limit the damage by ducking and calling 911 as fast as you can.

Thanks for returning to the conversation with civility and a professional answer. *respect*

JD

PS - Not to say you were not civil and professional before. Just we have people that wander off and then come back like a troll doll on crystal meth.
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Old 10-24-2012, 07:54 PM   #34
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My overall point is that everyone carries for a reason. When I carry, I do so with the intent that IF I can end a threat and not "get shot down like a dog" as you have indicated, I will forever feel responsible IF I did not do so.


Yeah, and your point is a good one. Will I be living with guilt the rest of my life? Do I fail to act out of fear? Or do I decide not to act out of a rational assessment of my chances? I have played with these questions many times. I think it's important to note that no civilian has an obligation to jump into a dangerous situation. I have three sons. The youngest is 16. Before I commit to a gunfight I have to ask myself, is it worth dying for? If some guy is indiscriminately slaughtering a mass of people, and I think I can stop it, maybe the risk is worth it. If another guy is killing somebody over a drug deal, I think I'll call 911 and go home to my family.
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Old 10-24-2012, 08:28 PM   #35
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Yeah, and your point is a good one. Will I be living with guilt the rest of my life? Do I fail to act out of fear? Or do I decide not to act out of a rational assessment of my chances? I have played with these questions many times. I think it's important to note that no civilian has an obligation to jump into a dangerous situation. I have three sons. The youngest is 16. Before I commit to a gunfight I have to ask myself, is it worth dying for? If some guy is indiscriminately slaughtering a mass of people, and I think I can stop it, maybe the risk is worth it. If another guy is killing somebody over a drug deal, I think I'll call 911 and go home to my family.
Perfectly valid and well written response. I can totally agree with what you wrote 100%.

This is actually something that has plagued me for some time actually as it has a direct tie to a real world scenario.

Back in 2005 a mall that my gal likes to go to get her hair done and do Christmas shopping in one fell swoop had this happen.

http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/topography-of-terror-black-friday-at-tacoma-mall/Content?oid=25433

Usually I go with her, because Tacoma isn't the warm hugs and loving gestures city and we had been at this very mall on the prior weekend. We went on like a Saturday and this happened the following week, like on a Sunday.

I wasn't there, I could not have done a damn thing even if I knew it was going down at the time it was, but what if that fool had come to that mall one week earlier?

Would I have dashed for the Hot Topic store and got behind the counter and hoped he ran out of ammo?

Would I have reached into my backpack to get my pistol and hoped for the best?

This guy hit 6 people, I do not believe any of them died, but he also wrecked havoc and caused a ton of nightmares for months to come, I am sure.

When these stories go to the "you don't have to do" I always come back to the thoughts I had when I heard that news report.

7 or 8 days difference and I might have had to do something. Would I have done so? Or would I have tried to herd people out of the line of fire and out fire exits? Or would I have just ran?

Anyways asking myself those very questions.
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Old 10-24-2012, 08:37 PM   #36
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I sympathize with the way that you feel in this statement. However, if we spend our time worrying about the "what if's", we will never get anything done. We can only try to be prepared for here and now and stay vigilant

As I stated previously, I do not know how I would respond to an "Active Shooter" situation except to say that I hope that I do the right thing.


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Perfectly valid and well written response. I can totally agree with what you wrote 100%.

This is actually something that has plagued me for some time actually as it has a direct tie to a real world scenario.

Back in 2005 a mall that my gal likes to go to get her hair done and do Christmas shopping in one fell swoop had this happen.

http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/topography-of-terror-black-friday-at-tacoma-mall/Content?oid=25433

Usually I go with her, because Tacoma isn't the warm hugs and loving gestures city and we had been at this very mall on the prior weekend. We went on like a Saturday and this happened the following week, like on a Sunday.

I wasn't there, I could not have done a damn thing even if I knew it was going down at the time it was, but what if that fool had come to that mall one week earlier?

Would I have dashed for the Hot Topic store and got behind the counter and hoped he ran out of ammo?

Would I have reached into my backpack to get my pistol and hoped for the best?

This guy hit 6 people, I do not believe any of them died, but he also wrecked havoc and caused a ton of nightmares for months to come, I am sure.

When these stories go to the "you don't have to do" I always come back to the thoughts I had when I heard that news report.

7 or 8 days difference and I might have had to do something. Would I have done so? Or would I have tried to heard people out of the line of fire and out fire exits? Or would I have just ran?

Anyways asking myself those very questions.
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Old 10-25-2012, 12:22 PM   #37
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Bloomberg seems to be everyone's favorite target lately. Yet I brought a string of horses into aqueduct in the mid 80's I had pistol packed in with my tack. Two grooms I knew from the Fairgrounds in New Orleans were helping me unload the tack. They almost went nuts when they saw the pistol. Gun laws were a new thing and I never bothered to ask about gun laws in NY. If pistols were illegal in NY in 85 what did Bloomberg have to do with that?

I agree that Bloomberg is nanny in chief. I agree that he has pushed some stupid laws through the city council. But it seems like New Yorkers like being told what to do and how to act. I am not knocking the people of New York but it seems like most of them are not capable of defending themselves. When people from NY move to my area they are intimidated and never quite fit in. They will drive for hours to spend an evening with other people from NY.

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Old 10-25-2012, 12:40 PM   #38
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I do not know how I would respond to an "Active Shooter" situation except to say that I hope that I do the right thing.


That sums it up well. I hope I do the right thing.

My suggestion, for whatever it's worth, to anybody wrestling with these questions is tactical training and mental preparation. By "tactical" I mean a versatile training program that allows you to experience different situations, barricade shooting, mag changes or speed-loading, movement-to-contact, employing available cover, drawing and firing smoothly and efficiently with different holster positions, different clothing, using both strong and support side hands to fire, red team/blue team targets so you have to make quick decisions, etc...

By "mental" preparation I mean to use your imagination to invent and play out in your mind different potentially lethal scenarios. There are a million, but you can weed them down to the environments you frequent, your home, your place of work, the places where you routinely park, shop, get gas, your kid's school, the streets you walk down...training is just more insurance that we will do the right thing.

I'm not preaching. I'm just a firm believer in doing anything you can to give yourself an edge...even though very few of us will ever find ourselves in a situation where we need one.
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Old 10-25-2012, 12:49 PM   #39
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I agree with this.

I could use a serious refresher course on hand gun usage.


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That sums it up well. I hope I do the right thing.

My suggestion, for whatever it's worth, to anybody wrestling with these questions is tactical training and mental preparation. By "tactical" I mean a versatile training program that allows you to experience different situations, barricade shooting, mag changes or speed-loading, movement-to-contact, employing available cover, drawing and firing smoothly and efficiently with different holster positions, different clothing, using both strong and support side hands to fire, red team/blue team targets so you have to make quick decisions, etc...

By "mental" preparation I mean to use your imagination to invent and play out in your mind different potentially lethal scenarios. There are a million, but you can weed them down to the environments you frequent, your home, your place of work, the places where you routinely park, shop, get gas, your kid's school, the streets you walk down...training is just more insurance that we will do the right thing.

I'm not preaching. I'm just a firm believer in doing anything you can to give yourself an edge...even though very few of us will ever find ourselves in a situation where we need one.
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Old 10-25-2012, 02:42 PM   #40
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For me to get involved with an active shooter he would have to be distracted and I would have to be able to act in just a second. In that situation it really wouldn't matter if I had a firearm or not. I might be old and my training rusty but I do my fair share of manual labor.

Manual labor is much like any type of self defense training. It forces you to focus your energy. Walking on bouncing or small scaffolding is great for building your balance. Try standing on top of a 2x4 wall. Then bend over and drive a 16 penny nail into a top plate. I can go on and on how manual labor prepares one for conflict.

I was a wild one in my younger days. I got into many bar room brawls were I was armed with both a pistol and a knife. Yet win, lose or draw I never drew a weapon. I doubt the out come would have been much different if I had pulled a weapon. Well, yes, the outcome would have changed because I would be a felon right now.

A weapon is not the solution to every violent situation. Most of the time avoidance is the best defense. If you are in a situation were a guy is shooting up a mall you won't be able to do anything about it. What are you going to do? Whip out your 380 and take on some guy that is prepared for battle? I would get my family to a safe location and pray I didn't have to use the 380.

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I do not shoot with my hand; I shoot with my mind. He who shoots with his hand has forgotten the face of his father.
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