Don't mess with a man of God who's packing!! - Page 3
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Old 10-22-2013, 03:58 PM   #21
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These are as important a set of questions that can be raised in this particular incident.

Say what you want about this man of God and what he did or didn't do and how right or wrong it might have been.
...But...He legally carries a firearm on his person. So he honestly should be willing to use that as a tool to save his holy bacon. ...legally permitting....Of course.
Amen. There is nothing in the Bible that denies anyone the right of self defense. Peter carried a sword. So did a bunch of other men of God.
As to the above question about "what would Jesus do?", He probably would have disarmed the robber without any fuss, and may have turned the guy's life around. There are references in the Bible about how He escaped assailants with nobody being hurt. He apparently was a master of Aikido 1900 years before Aikido came into existence.
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Old 10-22-2013, 11:05 PM   #22
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if just presenting a firearm prevents further criminal activity, without having to shoot the BG, then IMO the gun has done it's job. i am perfectly agreeable to not having to shoot someone if i don't have to.

even using deadly force that is fully justified, there is still the burden of having shot or killed someone, even if that someone is intent on doing evil. but i would still rather to feel bad vs. being left for dead.

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Old 10-22-2013, 11:28 PM   #23
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if just presenting a firearm prevents further criminal activity, without having to shoot the BG, then IMO the gun has done it's job. i am perfectly agreeable to not having to shoot someone if i don't have to.

even using deadly force that is fully justified, there is still the burden of having shot or killed someone, even if that someone is intent on doing evil. but i would still rather to feel bad vs. being left for dead.
My point in suggesting taking a shot is that the bad guy was turning toward the pastor with the object in his hand. How long do you wait? Do you wait until he's lined up? Do you wait until he has a good stance and a better sight picture? Or should you wait for the flash? My thoughts? Don't wait. As soon as the bad guy starts turning toward you, there's your threat. Counter the threat quickly enough and forcefully enough to end that threat.

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Old 10-22-2013, 11:35 PM   #24
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My point in suggesting taking a shot is that the bad guy was turning toward the pastor with the object in his hand. How long do you wait? Do you wait until he's lined up? Do you wait until he has a good stance and a better sight picture? Or should you wait for the flash? My thoughts? Don't wait. As soon as the bad guy starts turning toward you, there's your threat. Counter the threat quickly enough and forcefully enough to end that threat.

.
and IMO, you would still be justified in doing so. even though factually the BG was unarmed, you would still have reasonable assumption that he was armed.

that is why i said there isn't really a right or wrong answer to this. the BG placed himself in that position by attempting to rob the store and assaulting the clerk. even not being armed, had he been shot or killed, he was still at fault for his actions.
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Old 10-22-2013, 11:42 PM   #25
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even though factually the BG was unarmed, you would still have reasonable assumption that he was armed.
Exactly. What some seem to not get is that he was determined not to be armed AFTER the incident was over.

I'm not willing to take those kind of chances "just in case" he isn't armed. A reasonable person would have believed he was armed. Personally I would have shot as soon as he offered any resistance or refusal to comply with my commands.
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Old 10-22-2013, 11:47 PM   #26
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and IMO, you would still be justified in doing so. even though factually the BG was unarmed, you would still have reasonable assumption that he was armed.

that is why i said there isn't really a right or wrong answer to this. the BG placed himself in that position by attempting to rob the store and assaulting the clerk. even not being armed, had he been shot or killed, he was still at fault for his actions.
For all intents and purposes, and from a legal standpoint, he was armed. That's a point some others are missing as they look back in hindsight. If you ignore the hindsight there is only one right action. Defend yourself.

I understand what you are saying, and after the fact I do agree with you. I just don't think the pastor acted as he should have.
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Old 10-23-2013, 02:51 AM   #27
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My point in suggesting taking a shot is that the bad guy was turning toward the pastor with the object in his hand. How long do you wait? Do you wait until he's lined up? Do you wait until he has a good stance and a better sight picture? Or should you wait for the flash? My thoughts? Don't wait. As soon as the bad guy starts turning toward you, there's your threat. Counter the threat quickly enough and forcefully enough to end that threat.

.

When and if the time comes for anyone, there wont be a checklist. There will be instincts and...thats pretty much it. Whether they are finely or poorly honed through training, experience, combat or divine guidance doesnt matter. You always trust your instincts no matter what. Second guessing takes lives.

Many of us would have been right (including me) to shoot first. The pastor was also right because something told him not to and HIS instincts were also correct. The pastor's result yielded far more winners though. He won. The robber won. CCWs as a legitimate form of social control won. And the big man upstairs won. Cheers all around.
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Old 10-23-2013, 03:43 AM   #28
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I personally have had experience with that. I was perfectly willing to shoot, but it didn't turn out to be necessary, so the BG lived and so did I.
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Old 10-26-2013, 02:38 PM   #29
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Under law he was not unarmed. He represented that he was armed, he had something wrapped in plastic that he said was a gun. He used that item wrapped in plastic in a manner that to a reasonable person would lead them to believe it was a gun. Guess what. Under law it is a gun. He is guilty of the forcible felony of armed robbery.

Being a forcible felony, and being that he turned to aim the "gun" at the pastor, the pastor had every reason to be in fear for his life. Why does the pastor have a carry permit? Why did the pastor have a firearm on his person? Why did the pastor draw the firearm if he was not prepared to shoot?
a gun is a deterrent to a crime perhaps more often than it is used in defense.

i know TWO people who have pulled a gun in a self defense situation....in BOTH instances the aggressors backed off instantly and NO SHOT was fired.

do some people here WANT a person to get shot? stopping the crime without killing anyone is ALMOST always the best scenario, especially when we are only talking about someone attempting to simply take money.
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Old 10-26-2013, 02:41 PM   #30
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it's easy for us to sit in our comfy chairs, within the relative safety of our own homes and to play monday morning quarterback to his actions that day. he was there, and we weren't. he probably did what he felt like was the right course of action.

the man was unarmed, but did the pastor know that? probably not. this man even though unarmed did just attempt a robbery, and did assault the clerk and then turned on the pastor. the pastor presented his gun and the robber complied.

i think we are forgetting that carrying a pistol is not about using it as the first option, but as a last resort. and if merely presenting it, prevents further criminal activity, then so much the better. if the mere presence of a gun prevents a criminal act without one shot fired, then it has still done it's job.

i feel IMO, he would have been justified in shooting the robber, simply because i feel that he had no real knolwdege that the man was not armed, but am glad it turned out as it did, without a person being killed.
agree 100%. especially with the parts in bold.

well said.
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