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Old 04-13-2011, 04:23 AM   #41
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So, IGETEVEN, you are basically saying yours are the only true experiences in the world? The thousands of documented accounts of people failing to immediately stop after being shot are somehow irrelevant?

And you talk about me living in "my" world...


Egocentrism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


And doc, I gave direct graphical proof that the vitals are not always "just under the skin." I even explained the real-life event from which the desire for greater penetration came. Thus, his original statement was erroneous. I don't think it can get any more clear-cut than that. Nothing personal against him, but when you are wrong, you're wrong. Unless you throw an e-tantrum, I suppose.

And ms227, aiming to wound isn't even the issue. Those officers probably wanted nothing more than to watch their attackers to explode in a pile of mush. They put shots on target to the best of their abilities. In the Miami case, it was precisely the bullet's failure to penetrate that got those additional officers killed. Had it penetrated 12" instead of the ~9-10" it did, they might still be alive.

But, according to IGETEVEN, this is all made up and the Miami shootout, Officer Borders' story, and the thousands of other reports of failures to stop never happened... .

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Old 04-13-2011, 04:40 AM   #42
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So enlighten us. . . what was the cause of the failure to "stop"by the attacker? Too light on the HP ammo issued by the dept.? Drugs? Big dude?

I guarantee, there are 10x more stories of one-shot stops from any caliber of weapon, (aren't .22s one of the cartridges that usually result in death from a single shot?) than there are freaky failures to stop.

I read my local paper. All the time I read: "Suspect was killed by a single gun shot wound". I never read "suspect was shot 9x with a .45 ACP, but managed to kill several officers."

So in my world it doesn't happen.

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Old 04-13-2011, 05:34 AM   #43
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So, IGETEVEN, you are basically saying yours are the only true experiences in the world? The thousands of documented accounts of people failing to immediately stop after being shot are somehow irrelevant?
Nope, never said that. I just said what I have experienced and I can't do anything about a shooters error for piss poor shot placement.


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And doc, I gave direct graphical proof that the vitals are not always "just under the skin." I even explained the real-life event from which the desire for greater penetration came. Thus, his original statement was erroneous. I don't think it can get any more clear-cut than that. Nothing personal against him, but when you are wrong, you're wrong. Unless you throw an e-tantrum, I suppose.
Indeed, my bad, I was not clear in that statement. I meant to say main carotid arteries and veins in the neck and the femoral arteries and veins located in the groin and medial thighs are close to the surface. The heart is located to the left of the sternum, no less than 2-3 inches and the Aortic arch, trachea and bronchial branches are located right above that and about, if not closer to the surface of the upper sternum.

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They put shots on target to the best of their abilities. In the Miami case, it was precisely the bullet's failure to penetrate that got those additional officers killed. Had it penetrated 12" instead of the ~9-10" it did, they might still be alive.

But, according to IGETEVEN, this is all made up and the Miami shootout, Officer Borders' story, and the thousands of other reports of failures to stop never happened... .
Again, piss poor shot placement. If you shoot center mass, continue to shoot till the threat is stopped. The follow up shots should be to the represented triangle area which includes the heart, great arches, bronchials, trachea, subclavian artery, neck and head. All guaranteed areas that when damaged or destroyed, will put your dick in the dirt.
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Old 04-13-2011, 02:16 PM   #44
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Indeed, my bad, I was not clear in that statement. I meant to say main carotid arteries and veins in the neck and the femoral arteries and veins located in the groin and medial thighs are close to the surface. The heart is located to the left of the sternum, no less than 2-3 inches and the Aortic arch, trachea and bronchial branches are located right above that and about, if not closer to the surface of the upper sternum.
And again, if they aren't standing perfectly still in front of you, this all goes out the window.


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Again, piss poor shot placement.
NOPE. If you look at my image, the shot placement was absolutely perfect given the present target. The bullet simply stopped short of the heart. The target was sideways, and the shot was directly COM. Frontal shots were pointless as the assailants were wearing full body armor.

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The follow up shots should be to the represented triangle area which includes the heart, great arches, bronchials, trachea, subclavian artery, neck and head. All guaranteed areas that when damaged or destroyed, will put your dick in the dirt.
That sounds great on paper. But when all you've got is a handgun and you are being fired on by seemingly invincible attackers (body armor) with high-capacity automatic rifles, it isn't so easy to place every shot with magical precision as you postulate. It's funny, when you say things like this, it is YOU who sounds like the paper-punching, armchair commando. I would really love to watch you in action. I bet it's like watching the Matrix, if you are this good.


BTW, here is a diagram of the exact shot that failed to stop the attacker in Miami:
http://www.thegunzone.com/platt-shot.html



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So enlighten us. . . what was the cause of the failure to "stop"by the attacker? Too light on the HP ammo issued by the dept.? Drugs? Big dude?
In both of the cases I mentioned the only factor was adrenaline. More specifically, in the Border's case the attacker was just reaaally pissed off (had fights with his wife, which continued to escale into that gunfight with the officer). In the Miami case, the attackers probably just didn't want to die.

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I read my local paper. All the time I read: "Suspect was killed by a single gun shot wound". I never read "suspect was shot 9x with a .45 ACP, but managed to kill several officers."
Whether or not they die is irrelevant to them having immediately ceased hostilities. A punctured lung that kills them 8 minutes later on the way to the hospital leaves them dead but, as my picture shoes, does not at all mean they have to stop.

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I guarantee, there are 10x more stories of one-shot stops from any caliber of weapon, (aren't .22s one of the cartridges that usually result in death from a single shot?) than there are freaky failures to stop.
Counting on 10:1 odds when the odds are already against you 1,000,000:1 is not really logical. BTW, .22s have the highest kill count because they are most prevalant. But, whether the kid dies in the hospital has no bearing on whether or not he was physical incapable of doing whatever he needed to do.

Hell, in middle school I knew a kid who got shot in the stomach by a .357 revolver, and called 911 himself and was still conscious when they got there. Granted, he was a tough kid from a tough neighborhood, but he was still what, like 11?

Finally, read the NRA's "American Rifleman" (you are a member, aren't you?). In EVERY SINGLE ISSUE, in their section "The Armed Citizen," there is at least one story in which an attacker was shot by the defender and fled. Most of the time, the perp is arrested at the hospital or, in a few rare cases (like when hit by 12g blasts), found dead down the street or whatever. But in any case, if they had the ability to run outside and run / drive to the hospital, or even run out the door and across the street before dying, it is obviously nothing was physically preventing them from performing some significant physical action. If their minds had been set on killing their victims instead of fleeing, there is absolutely no reason they couldn't have continued their attacks. Even 10 seconds is PLENTY long enough to kill half a dozen people if the attacker still has 15 rounds left in his magazine.

The human body is very easy to kill but, physiologically speaking (I know that's a big word, IGETEVEN), it is very difficult to STOP. Even with a completely destroyed heart, the mind has 10-15 seconds of residual oxygen to maintain full controll of the body.


This suspect was shot with a magnum buckshot load, which all exited. He ran past the shooter and up two flights of stairs before collapsing in a room. The shooter is extremely lucky that the attacker was not focused on him, as it is very clear the attacker would have had plenty of time to hack him to bits with a kitchen knife if he wanted. Seriously, count to 10 and imaging how many times you could pull a trigger or swing a blade. And yes, that is a 2" gaping hole in the center of his chest. The shooter reported that he thought he completely missed, the target seemed so unaffected.


I personally don't live by the odds. If I did, having a gun would be pointless because odds are I'll never need it. If I did, I wouldn't wear a seatbelt because odds are, most of us will never get into a violent enough crash that a seatbelt would be necessary to prevent death or serious injury. Yeah, odds are that 99% of the time, the simple presence of my weapon will deter the attack. 90% of that 1% when shots are fired, the guy will likely run or give up. So yeah, in any given attack, there is probably only a .1%--1 / 1000 -- chance that shot placement and bullet performance will actually really matter. But I'd rather be prepared and not need it, than end up being the guy racking an empty shotgun to scare away an intruder and get killed because I didn't have the right tools for the job. And when you look at the numbers and see that there are about 2 million self defense incidents per year involving firearms, it starts looking like in about 2,000 of those shot placement was important.


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So in my world it doesn't happen.
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Old 04-13-2011, 03:08 PM   #45
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IGETEVEN, I'll wait for you to provide logical counterevidence refuting my statements here. No need to go private just because you are tired of being wrong.

It's funny, you keep citing "average" incidents and ignoring the experiences of everyone else. You keep talking about "normal" cases and "typical" shoots.

1) If all you really care about are what you've experienced, how is that in any way "average?"

2) If you are basing your claims on these pseudo-"averages," why then do you continue to blame average shooting on the problem. On average most shooters cannot and do not make perfect hits to the brain and carotid. On average, most shooters aim for COM. Yet, you act like any decent shooter in the world is going to be able to make precise hits exactly where necessary.

For someone who has really been there and done that, I'm really surprised you haven't been trained that people don't always just fall down and go to sleep when shot, like they do in Hollywood.

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Old 04-13-2011, 03:21 PM   #46
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I really got ya worked up now, don't I?

You do realize this is not a LEO/SWAT/Military forum, just a firearms forum, which mainly consists of civilians who shoot for sport, use and carry guns for self-defense from your average street thug, home invasion type BG, or occasional zombie, and yes, good chances are, you will indeed encounter them face to face.

The chances of anyone here encountering full armed assailants wearing full body armor, armed with automatic weapons and ops gear, bent on their life preservation and fighting to the death, not concerned with racking up opposing casualties, are pretty much slim to none.

Sounds like to me you have all the necessary knowledge and intel you need. Please be sure to remember it, when you are finally confronted with such assailants.
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Old 04-13-2011, 03:45 PM   #47
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This is top quality entertainment right here.

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Old 04-13-2011, 04:15 PM   #48
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[SIZE="4"]I really got ya worked up now, don't I?
Perhaps a bit, but at least I haven't started cussing yet .

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You do realize this is not a LEO/SWAT/Military forum, just a firearms forum, which mainly consists of civilians who shoot for sport and carry guns for self-defense from your average, street thug, home invasion type BG, or occasional zombie, and yes, good chances are, you will indeed be face to face.

The chances of anyone here encountering a full armed assailants wearing full body armor, armed with automatic weapons and ops gear, bent on their life preservation and fighting to the death, not concerned with opposing casualties, are pretty much slim to none.
Now, don't get me wrong, I have no expectations of being involved in such a conflict (of course, I'd never flatly say there is absolutely no chance). But, as I showed, it is not always these people. Every month in the NRA magazine, they report a case in which someone didn't stop doing what they were doing. In such examples, the attacker usually flees after being shot. However, what if he fell and felt cornered? There is nothing stopping him from emptying his weapon in my direction if he doesn't feel like he can escape. And this has nothing to do with being hell-bent on killing me, and everything to do with the same reaction that caused him to flee in the first place: self preservation. But the main point is they were all still very capable of physical action, and it was only by chance that this physical action didn't result in any more harm to the good guys (except in the Miami example).

I'm only trying to point out that this is a very real possibility, in the relative context of having to use a firearm to defend oneself.


But yeah, I don't think I am some sort of armchair commando. I don't own any tactical gear. I don't own any tactical guns. I've got a revolver, a nice flashlight, and a good pocket knife. My extreme "combat" gear looks like I'm going camping. You don't see me sitting here talking about all the things I woulda/coulda/shoulda done better than other people who have actually been in these situations. But, I do understand the reality of defensive shooting and human physiology, and know that in most cases stopping an attacker is entirely psychological.
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Old 04-13-2011, 04:22 PM   #49
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This would be a good place for this thread to end, IMHO...

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Old 04-13-2011, 04:31 PM   #50
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...the attacker usually flees after being shot. However, what if he fell and felt cornered? There is nothing stopping him from emptying his weapon in my direction if he doesn't feel like he can escape. I'm only trying to point out that this is a very real possibility, in the relative context of having to use a firearm to defend oneself.
Then you forgot the very first rule of a "justified, self defense" shooting...You keep firing till there is no threat.

I agree with NGIB.

Now...are we done here?
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