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Old 04-12-2011, 05:38 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by IGETEVEN View Post
Damn, and here all this time, I thought Tango was the turd authority!

To be fair here, I am not taking sides or such, and we all have our opinions, but are you just looking at the picture Drum, or have ya held one, examined it, tested cylinder tolerance and even fired one on that assumption for comparison?

I have done some real "viable" things in the past, with some turds, if I do say so myself.
I've held one as well and it is a Smith and Wesson, not a turd. I give it every bit of respect that I would any other Smith revolver, until there is reason to believe otherwise. It's well deserved.

Also, if the gun did just take .45 Colt and .45 ACP it would still be a versatile little revolver, adding the .410 is just like enabling snake use w/o buying expensive "shot-shell" cartridges.

Just 'cause I would choose my current go-to gun(s) over a .45/.410 combo, doesn't mean it isn't perfectly fine for most folks' use as a HD or PD gun.
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Old 04-12-2011, 06:00 PM   #22
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"Thats gotta hurt!

.410's followed by .45lc's...that's a S&W, not a damn toy.
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Old 04-12-2011, 06:02 PM   #23
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Not my first choice. Looks like it would hurt, but how effective would it be stopping an assailant? What does the pattern look like at 10 yards? 20 yards? Would it be completely useless at 30 yards?? What happens to all the pellets that miss??

Stupid novelty gun. But the guy does make a good point.. "its also black".

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Old 04-12-2011, 06:03 PM   #24
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I LIKE IT!!! Peppered every square inch of that silhouette. I load my 12 gagues similarly. . . half heavy game/ half buck shot, with a side (saddle) of a couple slugs.
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Old 04-12-2011, 06:05 PM   #25
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You guys are really getting your panties in a bunch about this thing aren't you?

I'm really not impressed....sorry, digs. Sure it peppered the target and a face full of it would certainly hurt but I doubt it going to stop a determined or drugged up attacker. Outside of a snake gun I can't see any real use for it loaded with 410s and there are better platforms out there for shooting 45s in either flavor. If you're a farmer who is constantly in the fields and come across snakes, rats and the occasional wild hog and you want to carry only one side arm I could see it but other then that....I'm looking for a reason.

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Old 04-12-2011, 06:35 PM   #26
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Oh, don't get me wrong. In a 3" revolver, the .410 is about worthless. Lots of flash, noise, and recoil, and probably still less generally effective than .380. And that is buckshot. Birdshot is going to be worthless unless you are just trying to scare someone away (but that even applies all the way up to a full-length 12g).

But, that is the fault of the platform, not the cartridge. From a long gun, the 5x000 loads hold 62% of what a 12g 000 load would hold and launches them at a similar velocity. Nobody would argue that a 12g is not SEVERAL times more effective than handguns, so something that is 5/8 as potent as a 12g as far as load effectiveness is going to still be significantly more effective.

Just like if you take an already mediocre anti-personell cartridge like the .223, and shoot it out of a barrel that is a small fraction of designed length, it will be really ineffective compared to even other cartridges designed for that barrel length.

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Old 04-12-2011, 06:37 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by dnthmn2004 View Post
Not my first choice. Looks like it would hurt, but how effective would it be stopping an assailant? What does the pattern look like at 10 yards? 20 yards? Would it be completely useless at 30 yards?? What happens to all the pellets that miss??
You plan on shooting somebody at 20 + yards?? This is an up close, 7-10 yard handgun, ya know the distance where most SD encounters take place.

Did you forget that it shoots .45 acp and .45lc's, which I would prefer the later, as follow up, because of the longer cartridge.

A Human being's physical tissue structure is delicate and vital organs are located just under the skin. The physical and emotional trauma and resulting damage produced by fast moving velocity projectiles, is not the same as god damn ballistics gel!!!
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Old 04-12-2011, 06:54 PM   #28
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IGETEVEN, more than half of the bullets that reach the vitals in police shootings travel either through limbs (hands, arms, thighs) or angularly through the torso (they are lying on the ground, but still an active threat). So, in a large majority of cases, the bullets do need to go through more than just a few inches of flesh.

I am 6' and only weigh about 145lbs, and if I put my knee in front of my chest I measure about 8" of flesh just to get to my chest. My heart is another 2" behind a bony plate. So, even in a skinny guy,

Think about it, what are the odds that the target will be standing perfectly facing you, with his arms to his sides? If he isn't turning to run, his arms are likely going to be up either holding a weapon or because he is running to attack you.

In any case, it is illogical to prepare for a scenario of statistically very low liklihood (a SD shooting), but then rely on the odds being in your favor that the target will always be in perfect presentation. I want to know my bullets can reach the vitals when they need to, regardless of what odd position the shooter is in.

BTW, it was the Miami shootout in which a bullet traveled about 10" of flesh and stopped just short of the heart. The shooter continued fighting for several minutes, killing at least two more officers (this is off the top of my head), before finally bleeding to death from that wound and one to the thigh. Thus, the FBI determined a bullet needed to be able to penetrate at least 12" of flesh, but that optimum is really 15-18".

If a 300lb man challenges me, it is absolutely plausible for his vitals to at some point be behind 15 or 20" of flesh. Few defensive handgun loads consistently penetrate to those depths, but I like to err on the side of caution.

If the bullet doesn't reach the vitals, it wasn't worth the powder that launched it.

Here is what determined the FBI minimum penetration standard:



*edit*

And you can rely on emotional and psychological effects all you want. As my above example points out, two officers died because the target did not "freak out" like everyone thought he should after getting shot. There are lots and lots of examples of these cases. Yeah, most of the time simply presenting your weapon works, or firing a warning shot works, or any hit to their body works. But again, if you are in a serious SD scenario, odds have long gone out the window. Why try to rely on them now?


Here is one example of a police shooting. The suspect was not high on cocaine or drunk out of his mind, and didn't have a history of mental problems. He was just pissed off.

Quote:
Resistance to Gunfire
Mettinger absorbed nine rounds from Borders' .45—six of which hit him in the torso and two more of which literally severed his right foot—without any significant effect on his fighting ability. This would have been remarkable even if Officer Borders had been firing marginally effective rounds, but he was using .45 caliber Gold Dot ammunition, which is considered by many to be the best man-stopper on the market.
None of the shots hit his heart or aorta, and thus he was not stopped quickly. Though, with his level of determination he likely would have used his full 10+ seconds of residual oxygen in his brain before finally collapsing. But, 10 seconds is better than several minutes, heh.

*edit*

Quick google search:
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=397189
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Old 04-12-2011, 07:39 PM   #29
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You guys are really getting your panties in a bunch about this thing aren't you?

I'm really not impressed....sorry, digs. Sure it peppered the target and a face full of it would certainly hurt but I doubt it going to stop a determined or drugged up attacker. Outside of a snake gun I can't see any real use for it loaded with 410s and there are better platforms out there for shooting 45s in either flavor. If you're a farmer who is constantly in the fields and come across snakes, rats and the occasional wild hog and you want to carry only one side arm I could see it but other then that....I'm looking for a reason.
The following like is 12 gague loaded w/ birdshot, but use your imagination and downsize it and you'd have something similar w/ the .410.

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=109958

Let me be clear. . . I don't think it's the best option, but I also don't think it's a bad one either.
A face full would probably blind anyone, drugged up or not, if you can't see, losing a major sensory perception, you are immediately hindered and rendered useless.
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Old 04-12-2011, 07:49 PM   #30
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The following like is 12 gague loaded w/ birdshot, but use your imagination and downsize it and you'd have something similar w/ the .410.

Shotgunworld.com • View topic - 12 gauge Wound Profiles (56k beware) Examples on page 3

Let me be clear. . . I don't think it's the best option, but I also don't think it's a bad one either.
A face full would probably blind anyone, drugged up or not, if you can't see, losing a major sensory perception, you are immediately hindered and rendered useless.
I personally think it is a poor choice for SD. I won't argue that it would most likely blind you but that's not certain.

I think we may have to agree to disagree on this one.
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