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Old 11-26-2009, 05:05 PM   #21
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I think most people forget why we shoot someone in the first place. To stop a lethal threat and or detour them from harming you or significant others.

If you happen to kill the threat, so be it, but based on many statistics, some personal experience and shooting situations I have witnessed, you shoot anyone with anything, no matter the size, 99.9% they usually stop, slow down, drop dead and/or mortally wounded, turn around, run away and realize that they just got shot and reconsider their priorities and intentions at that time. In other words, you just changed their mind.

Ballistic gel is nice for producing ballistic facts and penetration visuals, which leads to personal handgun choices and ammo load consideration, but gel it not alive, it has no reasoning abilities or feelings, and it is non threatening.

Oh, and that.01% that does not change someones mind or stop them...........keep shooting and remember your shot placement.

Jack

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Old 11-26-2009, 05:12 PM   #22
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99% do not stop or fall down dead, and throwing out numbers arbitrarily does not help anyone.

Yes Gel is not flesh, but it is the best way to test effectiveness short of live animal testing. You can not test for what the BG will actually do without testing it on every BG out there. Because mentality and drive will be the deciding factor when you hit something other than the CNS.

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Old 11-26-2009, 07:45 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shooter girl View Post
99% do not stop or fall down dead, and throwing out numbers arbitrarily does not help anyone.

Yes Gel is not flesh, but it is the best way to test effectiveness short of live animal testing. You can not test for what the BG will actually do without testing it on every BG out there. Because mentality and drive will be the deciding factor when you hit something other than the CNS.
Well miss, I am gonna have to respectably agree to disagree on your first statement. They do stop, slow down, drop or turn around, in other words, you have just acutely and abruptly distracted that BG by shooting them.

That gives you just enough of an edge to futher apply more aggressive defensive tactics of your choice, preferably more well placed rounds. That is the reason for needed and continually preached, shooting practice and more practice, well placed rounds will stop the threat, whether it be CNS disruption or just a painful deterrent.

As a member of this forum, I have sat back and read numerous posts concerning defensive shooting tactics and what the OP would do, or not do, in a lethal defense situation and what weapon and caliber he would use to to do it with. I have kept quiet and have not voiced a strong opinion on whether the OP was right or not........until now.

So, as not to sound like an arrogant, know it all ass hole (some others here on this forum may agree on this comment) I am just going to say this.

I know what I have personally experienced and witnessed in the real world, when an average "Joe" shoots another average "Joe" my statement still applies. I did not test my acquired knowledge of my beliefs out on paper or steel targets, I have personally tested them on "real people" in combat situations and close quarter deadly situations in the real world. So, unless you can tell me you have been placed in the same lethal and deadly situations, experienced different outcomes and results, my original statements stand, all based on my personal experience.

Jack
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Old 11-26-2009, 07:54 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IGETEVEN View Post
I know what I have personally experienced and witnessed in the real world, when an average "Joe" shoots another average "Joe" my statement still applies. I did not test my acquired knowledge of my beliefs out on paper or steel targets, I have personally tested them on "real people" in combat situations and close quarter deadly situations in the real world. So, unless you can tell me you have been placed in the same lethal and deadly situations, experienced different outcomes and results, my original statements stand, all based on my personal experience.

Jack
I understand that, and yes I do have my CAR with stars.

How many people have you shot? Of course I do not expect you to answer that, nor would I want you to. The point of the question is to example the small statistical number that you could have possibly shot. If you shoot five people and all five of them turn to run away, does that mean that the majority of those shot in future instances will run away a majority of the time? No it does not. That is why we must take our personal experience and couple it with learned study, and comparison with other documented accounts from the battlefield, LEO encounters, and civilian defense.

If you have not done so, I would suggest reading the following paper.
http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

You can not rely on pain suffered from a gunshot wound to stop the attacker, because often times individuals shot do not feel the pain until some time later. This is because of the way our minds process pain, and in the fight or flight response, often times our brain turns off the pain response.

Please do not think that I am trying to be a knowitall either. I am not, and I am not so deluded to think that I know better than everyone else out there. I am simply conveying my experiences along with what I have learned through years of independent study. If the bullet does not get to vital organs, it is not worth carrying.

Sorry, it seems that the link isn't working anymore. Is there a way to upload a PDF to my post?
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Last edited by Shooter girl; 11-26-2009 at 08:10 PM.
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Old 11-26-2009, 08:41 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shooter girl View Post
I understand that, and yes I do have my CAR with stars.

How many people have you shot? Of course I do not expect you to answer that, nor would I want you to. The point of the question is to example the small statistical number that you could have possibly shot. If you shoot five people and all five of them turn to run away, does that mean that the majority of those shot in future instances will run away a majority of the time? No it does not. That is why we must take our personal experience and couple it with learned study, and comparison with other documented accounts from the battlefield, LEO encounters, and civilian defense.

If you have not done so, I would suggest reading the following paper.
http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

You can not rely on pain suffered from a gunshot wound to stop the attacker, because often times individuals shot do not feel the pain until some time later. This is because of the way our minds process pain, and in the fight or flight response, often times our brain turns off the pain response.

Please do not think that I am trying to be a knowitall either. I am not, and I am not so deluded to think that I know better than everyone else out there. I am simply conveying my experiences along with what I have learned through years of independent study. If the bullet does not get to vital organs, it is not worth carrying.

Sorry, it seems that the link isn't working anymore. Is there a way to upload a PDF to my post?

PM inbound.

Jack
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Old 11-26-2009, 09:54 PM   #26
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Responded

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Old 11-27-2009, 06:40 AM   #27
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Clarification of my earlier posts. Close quarters (3-8 yards) lethal confrontation, .38 or .357 caliber, face to face, you shoot average "Joe" he will stumble, falter, hesitate or drop, depending on round placement.

That hesitation is enough time for you to move and shoot again and repeatedly as needed, utilizing various round placements, to stop an armed and approaching assault.

You practice to draw, point, shoot and move, and always be prepared to move in which ever direction that is tactical for that situation and your personal safety, and still have target on the BG.

Remember, even small calibers will stop a BG, and it is the round placement or multiple placements, that will bring him down. Sometimes you do have to work with what you have, so make it work.

Jack

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Old 11-27-2009, 05:57 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shooter girl View Post
99% do not stop or fall down dead, and throwing out numbers arbitrarily does not help anyone.

Yes Gel is not flesh, but it is the best way to test effectiveness short of live animal testing. You can not test for what the BG will actually do without testing it on every BG out there. Because mentality and drive will be the deciding factor when you hit something other than the CNS.
Ive got to say that I agree with you Shooter. Well that has been my experience anyway.
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Old 11-27-2009, 06:15 PM   #29
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Why thank you Sir.

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Old 11-27-2009, 06:43 PM   #30
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shot placement and caliber will play a big factor in whether or not the bad guy stops his attack, the average joe will probably not be defending himself against another average joe more then likely the bg will be high or drunk and that can play a big factor on whether or not the bg stops his attack without one perfectly placed lethal shot.

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