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-   -   What is "discernable" mean to you and CC? (http://www.firearmstalk.com/forums/f156/what-discernable-mean-you-cc-90662/)

fa35jsf 05-14-2013 01:56 AM

What is "discernable" mean to you and CC?
 
As defined by the Texas Concealed Handgun Laws GC §411.171. Section (3)

“Concealed handgun” means a handgun, the presence of which is not openly discernible to the ordinary observation of a reasonable person.

So what is considered concealed in Texas? This is a question that I have been asking myself for awhile. In case you don't know, "printing" in Texas is illegal (i.e. the outline or any form of a gun showing through clothing).

I therefor tend to try to go for what is considered deep concealed or basically completely undetectable. But I have found that in some cases if I am carrying my big gun I will have a pressure point on the shirt where the hammer is clearly showing that something is under there, although it it impossible to tell what. If I bend over then the grip area can "print" some. At the very least I show a belt clip when my shirt is tucked in.

So to ask the question, what is considered "discernible to the ordinary observation of a reasonable person"? Since I have started carrying, I have started checking others out. If I see a slight bulge or unevenness on a person, I try to figure out if they are carrying by watching closely.

A few days ago I was at Wal-Mart and saw a cowboy walking around and he had a clip going over his belt. I knew he was carrying IWB but then again I carry also so am I a "reasonable person"?

Tackleberry1 05-14-2013 02:11 AM

Your putting a lot of though into this.

IMHO... and after 17 years of EDC... as long as you dress around the gun, you should be fine.

The types of "showing" that may give you a problem are pretty extreme, such as OWB and your jacket flys open... Or IWB under a skin tight shirt.

I notice many other CCers but we know what to look for, and are curious... the sheep are called sheep for a reason. They don't notice much.

Tack

fa35jsf 05-14-2013 02:15 AM

Thanks Tack. I'm probably just being paranoid but I don't ever want to be called out by another person or worse yet, an officer telling me that I'm not within the law. I don't want any trouble and especially from the law. I have found that many "new day" cops don't seem to believe in armed citizens.

Tackleberry1 05-14-2013 02:27 AM

I hear you... And if your ever in that situation with that Cop the only resonse should be... "Officer, am I being detained? Or am I free to go?"

The "consensual" conversation with any Cop is simply him letting you talk long enough to give him "reasonable suspicion" to justify a search... so don't chat with Cops... They do a tough job but there not that cool. ;)

Over the years I've packed every size and caliber under the sun but 5 years ago I decided that no BS concealment was a priority and took to carrying a subcompact 9 mm in a belly band. I position it just like an ITP holster, under a tucked in shirt and it would take a pat down to find it.

No clips to be seen by anyone and more comfortable because positioning need not avoid belt loops. Same access as say a super tuck but without the clips.

Good luck and don't worry so much... Proper dress and body mechanics will keep you concealed from all but the most observant, and we EDC ALSO so were not too worried about you. :)

Tack

Cattledog 05-14-2013 03:01 AM

I think "....ordinary observation of a reasonable person" is more telling. Meant to say basically that "The average person, that's aware of what a pistol looks like and isn't blind, looking at you but not for anything in particular" Most people are oblivious to whats going on under clothing because they aren't looking for anything. Then, even if something looks out of place it can fall into a blind spot because it just doesn't register.

I, on the other hand, have made a game of trying to find another CCW since I started carrying, just because I know what printing looks like. As far as I'm concerned, CCW holders and LEO's (the only people that would know what to look for) don't qualify as "ordinary observation." You're thinking too much and you're fine. :)

Oregon has a similar "keep-the-dam-thing-hidden" stipulation as well.

Tackleberry1 05-14-2013 03:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cattledog (Post 1246103)
I think "....ordinary observation of a reasonable person" is more telling. Meant to say basically that "The average person, that's aware of what a pistol looks like and isn't blind, looking at you but not for anything in particular" Most people are oblivious to whats going on under clothing because they aren't looking for anything. Then, even if something looks out of place it can fall into a blind spot because it just doesn't register.

I, on the other hand, have made a game of trying to find another CCW since I started carrying, just because I know what printing looks like. As far as I'm concerned, CCW holders and LEO's (the only people that would know what to look for) don't qualify as "ordinary observation." You're thinking too much and you're fine. :)

Oregon has a similar "keep-the-dam-thing-hidden" stipulation as well.

Yes they do but what's the penalty? I CC in both OR and WA and both are OC States so... What do they site you for? Your CCW covers the "concealed" part and the OC law should make incidental printing or flashing a moot point unless it's being done intentionally to intimidate someone? Right?

I've never been made but would love to hear from anyone in OC State who had an LEO encounter due to someone "making" there CCW piece.


Tack

fa35jsf 05-14-2013 03:15 AM

Well just how observant is the average person? I like to think of myself as a very situational aware person. I constantly have my head on a swivel and if anyone walks closely behind me while I'm carrying then I quickly correct the situation by seeing where that person is and what they are doing.

I really think things will be much better when I get my crossbreeds supertuck holster in and can throw this soft form IWB holster into the holster box.

Cattledog 05-14-2013 03:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tackleberry1 (Post 1246115)
Yes they do but what's the penalty? I CC in both OR and WA and both are OC States so... What do they site you for? Your CCW covers the "concealed" part and the OC law should make incidental printing or flashing a moot point unless it's being done intentionally to intimidate someone? Right?

I've never been made but would love to hear from anyone in OC State who had an LEO encounter due to someone "making" there CCW piece.


Tack

It's funky. Oregon is a open carry state but the city of Portland (as well as some others) prohibit it. Now, there is legal protection for someone in one of these non-OC cities that possesses a valid CCW permit. However, A police officer could use their own discretion and cite for disturbing the peace or some such BS because OC isn't technically legal within city limits. In other words, yes a CCW holder can carrry OC in a non-OC city in Oregon legally but would probably end up having a conversation with an officer at some point. How that conversation goes is kind of up in the air. I know, it's moronic.

c3shooter 05-14-2013 03:57 AM

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CHLChris 05-14-2013 04:06 AM

"Printing" laws are mostly there as a reason for an officer to use as probable cause for something else. If you are doing your best to follow the spirit of concealed carry, you will not really have any problems, even if every now and then the butt of your gun is visible under your shirt.

Most people see absolutely NOTHING! My pocket holster very much looks like a gun in my pocket. Nobody has EVER EVER EVER said anything or even seemed that they noticed.

In fact I have NEVER had anybody indicate to me that they noticed something.


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