what should my bug out handgun be??? - Page 9
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Old 06-20-2013, 08:31 PM   #81
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Ummm... Autos are generally mechanically simpler and have fewer moving parts than a DA revolver.

In the end, a revolver *may* still be more reliable than a semiauto, but unless there is actually something wrong with the auto, I think he difference is much smaller than some people make it out to be.

This isn't a knock on revolvers, either, I own and use both revolvers and semiautos for both range and SD work.
Ummm... No, revolvers are (generally) mechanically simpler than semi-automatic pistols. Almost any semi-automatic pistol has a lot more going on inside of it than a typical revolver. The fact that the engineering principles, materials science, and quality control processes are advanced enough to make semi-automatic pistols reliable doesn't mean that a pistol is mechanically simpler than a revolver.

That said, simpler doesn't always mean better.

An AK is simpler than an AR-15, but it's heavier, ergonomics aren't that great, sighting mechanism leaves something to be desired, and reloading an AK quickly takes more practice than with an AR-15.

With respect to your last point, in certain situations a revolver could be more reliable than a semi-auto- like firing one that's till in your pocket or jacket. Those situations are pretty limited.

If semi-automatic pistols were unreliable, all the testing that the military does would probably have rejected the design type a long time ago. Semi-automatic pistols are reliable, durable, and acceptable for military use.

Both designs, in general, are pretty reliable and durable. It's a question of weight, size, speed, and capacity.

I'm not Jerry Miculek or Bob Munden, so I use a semi-automatic pistol.
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Old 06-20-2013, 11:32 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by kbd512

Anybody who thinks that there's all that much difference between 9MM, .40S&W, and .45 ACP really needs to see the ballistics gelatin after it's been shot with the various calibers commonly used in defensive handguns.
Anyone who thinks ballistic gelatin is a wholistic and highly accurate gauge of the various calibers, really needs to understand that they don't account for bones and other organs which might interrupt penetration.

Just kidding.

Seriously though, in my opinion ballistic gelatin is a start, but its a mediocre (at best) example of what a projectile can do when entering the body.

Also, proponents of larger calibers might say a .45 will make a bigger hole than a 9mm, and therefore the individual will bleed out faster. The faster the bleed out, the faster the stoppage of the threat.

To which proponents of smaller calibers will say that you can fire more shots, and in a quicker time, with a 9mm than you can a .45. And more holes in the body = also a fast bleed out rate.

So who wins? The person who brings a gun to a knife fight, that's who.

I have a 9mm right now for carry purposes. That caliber was mostly a logistical choice. My wife prefers a 9mm (although admittedly the only larger caliber she can compare it to is .40 S&W), so I went with 9mm in order for me to reload more of one caliber, and therefore we can both shoot more.

On a side note, I like it when people refuse to carry a revolver because it has "limited capacity," but are ok with carrying a single stack 9mm or a pocket .380. Generally those two types have 6-8 rounds available before a reload, whereas a revolver has usually 6, but sometimes 8 if you go for an N frame .357 Magnum (for example). I personally would rather have the higher energy of a .357 Magnum, with 6 rounds, than 8 shots of 9mm. But, once you start getting into double stacked magazines, obviously that changes things a bit.

Yes, I know, you can reload that spare magazine from your belt faster than you can a speed loader for a revolver. But a lot of people don't even carry extra magazines, especially in summer carry. So to me that's a moot point.

Eh. Just rambling. Pay me no mind. I don't really know what my point was in this diatribe. If you made it to the end of this overly long post which didn't say anything, do yourself a favor and buy a nice pat on your back. I'll even pay for it.
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Old 06-20-2013, 11:47 PM   #83
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I guess I have no clue what bug out mode is. Are you talking about flipping out and going to kill as many people as you can in a theater or school? Because that's what bugging out means to me.

Or are you just wanting something that makes you look like a complete mall ninja at the range?

Any Glock that takes those 50 round drums ought to do just fine. Or ones that take 30+ round magazines, which many, if not most, do.

CZ75 has an available 30-something round mag from that terrible mag manufacturer whose equipment never works in any gun.

Beretta 96A1/Px4 Storm or Ruger P95/90 if you don't feel the need to have those gaudy extended mags on your gun like movie props in the hands of some warrior Princess or other stupid namby-pamby, milquetoast wannabe "action hero" of sorts.

For me, a survival gun isn't single handheld, it's a rifle.
Let me warn everyone NOT to take your usually better-planted bait this time Beyond The Box. The phrase to "bug out" has been around at least as long as MASH used it every other week as part of the 1950's lexicon. Sorry -- your grandfather used the term and they're not falling for it this time. Here.
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Old 06-20-2013, 11:54 PM   #84
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Man, does the semiautomatic vs revolver argument pop up everywhere?

Like caliber vs capacity, it's all subjective and needs are unpredictable.

It's all taste and preference, nothing more, factually!
Not really Box. Not at all. It has more to do with what emphasis people put on what scenarios they consider most likely and threatening.

A 9mm semi-auto really only fits the bill for someone whose most likely expectation is a human threat and one where repeated high-capacity rapid-fire shots are required vs. more accurate and effective stopping power. Your dismissal of the issue as capricious whimsy is fanciful and probably designed to start an argument.

Did I bite on the hook hard enough?
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Old 06-21-2013, 12:01 AM   #85
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If semi-automatic pistols were unreliable, all the testing that the military does would probably have rejected the design type a long time ago. Semi-automatic pistols are reliable, durable, and acceptable for military use.
Except that soldiers are sent into the field as a sacrifice. They are the expression of will a nation expends in blood and treasure for what it wants; "politics by other means" Von Clauswitz put it. Especially Marines -- "motivated" cannon fodder. Sorry.

The sad truth is the mission is to wound and kill more of the enemy than they can afford to lose, but to die for your country if need be, as ordered. For as long as the civillians let it go on which is the only real variable in the U.S. And the semi-auto is fine for that!
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Old 06-21-2013, 12:11 AM   #86
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Except that soldiers are sent into the field as a sacrifice. They are the expression of will a nation will expend in blood and treasure for what it wants; "politics by other means" Von Clauswitz put it. Sorry. The mission is to wound and kill more of the enemy than they can afford to lose and die for your country if need be, as ordered. The semi-auto is fine for that!
Simple, fairly common jamming issues of semis, squashes any argument that they may be on pare as reliable to a revolver!! But I love the high capacity potential of most semis!! But there is a trade for that advantage!!
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Old 06-21-2013, 12:38 AM   #87
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Except that soldiers are sent into the field as a sacrifice. They are the expression of will a nation expends in blood and treasure for what it wants; "politics by other means" Von Clauswitz put it. Especially Marines -- "motivated" cannon fodder. Sorry.

The sad truth is the mission is to wound and kill more of the enemy than they can afford to lose, but to die for your country if need be, as ordered. For as long as the civillians let it go on which is the only real variable in the U.S. And the semi-auto is fine for that!
*sigh* so now we're Soviet Russia. Cannon fodder. Ugh.

I'm just disgusted. And I'm not even gonna bother. I've seen enough yammering a in the short time on this forum that I know there's no point.

My only consolation is that most people I've experienced, in any community, including this forum, are mostly not as unreasonable and uncouth as those statements.
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Old 06-21-2013, 02:38 AM   #88
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Simple, fairly common jamming issues of semis, squashes any argument that they may be on pare as reliable to a revolver!! But I love the high capacity potential of most semis!! But there is a trade for that advantage!!
If your Glock jams, you should probably get a replacement or buy replacement parts. It can and will happen, but it doesn't happen very often.

If you shoot revolvers enough, you'll learn that they can jam and the parts wear out, too. Mine have. I fix them and move on. They're still great guns.

Between a revolver and a sharp stick, I'd choose the revolver every time. Since we have reliable semi-auto pistols that can shoot everything from 9MM to .50AE, I use them and thank our engineers for designing them.

Everything mechanical can and will break. If you're really worried about it, bring two of everything you think you'll need.
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Old 06-21-2013, 02:57 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by kbd512

If your Glock jams, you should probably get a replacement or buy replacement parts. It can and will happen, but it doesn't happen very often.

If you shoot revolvers enough, you'll learn that they can jam and the parts wear out, too. Mine have. I fix them and move on. They're still great guns.

Between a revolver and a sharp stick, I'd choose the revolver every time. Since we have reliable semi-auto pistols that can shoot everything from 9MM to .50AE, I use them and thank our engineers for designing them.

Everything mechanical can and will break. If you're really worried about it, bring two of everything you think you'll need.
We can agree that both can fail!! Where we differ is the mathematical fact that we seem to differ on is the fact that the more moving parts the more likely to fail
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Old 06-21-2013, 03:13 AM   #90
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I thought this thread started out as to what was the "ultimate survival handgun". To me, this involves a lot of other consideration other than what is the best self defense gun for two legged critters.

I have yet to see anyone who set down and listed the "survival" factors the gun would be used for, and exactly why the 9mm is the most suitable caliber to meet those considerations.

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