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-   -   SA uncocked carry? (http://www.firearmstalk.com/forums/f15/sa-uncocked-carry-73193/)

BeyondTheBox 09-26-2012 06:01 AM

I'm curious if anyone has ever had even second party experience or knowledge of an instance of an SA handgun going off while loaded and uncocked. I've taken my SAs out, chambered round, uncocked, and used a hammer to try and engage the firingpin, nothing. I hit as hard as I was willing to, considering the possible damage it could cause should I do so further.

I've been told and read elsewhere, everywhere, that it's not a safe position to carry in, and I understand the reasoning, but my experience will always outweigh the "common" perception. However, I will never disregard or overlook a more experienced word to wisdom, just require more than could'ves, should'ves or would'ves.

What's your take on it? Am I being stubborn and ignorant here? I won't lie, I've always had to learn things the hardest way possible because I don't take anyone's word for anything, but I'm not so pig headed that I can't take all into account.

Thanks fellas.

Vikingdad 09-26-2012 06:03 AM

You need to be specific as to what SA gun you are asking about. For instance, the Ruger New Model Blackhawk has a transfer bar safety that makes it safe to carry with all 6 chambers loaded, this is true of the Ruger Vaqueros as well.

c3shooter 09-26-2012 09:35 AM

And the 1911A1 pistol (Semi auto and Single Action) has a firing pin that when the hammer is flat against it, will not reach the primer- it "bounces" forward when struck.

My Ruger .22 pistols are also SA/SA. So, what gun?

danf_fl 09-26-2012 10:32 AM

Because this is posted in the semi-auto handguns, I presume that is what you are talking about.

Remembering that one rule is to keep the finger off the trigger until you are ready to shoot (and the only way to lower most SA semi-auto hammers is to pull the trigger), there is no way to keep a round in the chamber and uncock the hammer SAFELY.

So that means the hammer is down on an empty chamber. That is a safe way to carry.

trip286 09-26-2012 12:02 PM

I get the impression you're referring to single action revolvers...

How about one of the most famous lawmen ever? Wyatt Earp.

Legend has it that while sitting in a saloon one day with a small group of companions (believe the famous "Doc" Holliday was there), he propped his foot on a nearby chair, inverting the holster on his hip and tied to his leg, allowing the gun to slip and fall to the floor. The gun went off, blowing a hole through the leg of his own chair, causing it to collapse, and also putting a hole in the table.

I can't confirm this, as the story varies. Supposedly he swore his friends to secrecy on the matter, out of embarrassment. Someone obviously spoke out, or spread rumors. But, I will say that I'd found it to be attributed to at least two sources, Holliday, and Morgan Earp, one of his closest friends and younger brother, respectively.

mdauben 09-26-2012 12:19 PM

The danger of Condition 2 (hammer down on a loaded chamber) is not so much the chance of an accidental discharge while carrying as an accidental discharge while putting the gun in that condition while manually dropping the hammer on a live round.

Condition 2 is slower into action than Condition 1 (cocked and locked) and less safe than Condition 3 (unloaded chamber) so it really has nothing to recommend it as a method of carry.

With the vast variety of handguns and actions available today, if you are not comfortable carrying in Condition 1 (the intended way) you should just chose a non-SA gun to use.

gunsmoke11 09-26-2012 04:47 PM

Many years ago my partner while removing his Browning HP from his holster in our locker room dropped the gun. It fell with the muzzle hitting the floor first, causing the barrel to be pushed back. There was a round in the chamber and the hammer was down. The primer struck the firing pin and the gun discharged and the bullet struck the ground and then hit the ceiling. Never leave the hammer down in a SA auto with a round in the chamber. Also, I wouldn't believe the story about Wyatt Earp, cause they didn't tie down their holsters to their leg back then. That was invented by the movie industry and quick draw rigs weren't used in the 1800's.They didn't even use hammer thongs, only flap holsters if they wanted their guns secured. This Colt SAA .45LC is ca. 1891 with with common holster.
http://i1265.photobucket.com/albums/...F/PC240110.jpg
This is my T-Series Browning HP like the one my partner dropped.
http://i1265.photobucket.com/albums/...F/P1010004.jpg

BeyondTheBox 09-26-2012 05:07 PM

So the comcern is less about what could happen during carry as it is about what could happen if it slipped while letting it down.

I know the general rules of thumb about never have finger on trigger until I'm ready to shoot and never point the weapon at something I'm not willing to shoot, but I just think such statements are far too blanketed to apply. The gun is always aimed on something, and I don't know about you guys but I'm not willing to put a whole in my floors.

I'm always extremely careful when letting down the hammer. I place one finger firmly atop it and one between it and the firing pin as a secondary precaution. I much prefer to carry it this way as I feel it inherently safer and quicker to use than cocked n locked, much so. I've proven it in my practice at drawing and firing.

The guns I'm referring to would be (for open carry) my two Firestars, M45 & M43, and (for concealed) my Phoenix HP22ANB. They are SA semi-autos, not revolvers.

Thanks for the advisements fellas. And just incase the more safety police of kind were wondering, I wasn't holding my handgun in one hand and hammering against it with my other. I realized what a slide thundering back could do to the hammer in my hand and my face on the other end of it, so I had a buddy do it. Hahahaa just kidding, I rigged some C clamps up with a backstop placed under the hammer gaurd so it couldn't wildly fire into the air. If it had fired the bullet would've gone directly into the ground in front of it.

Vikingdad 09-26-2012 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BeyondTheBox (Post 955304)
I know the general rules of thumb about never have finger on trigger until I'm ready to shoot and never point the weapon at something I'm not willing to shoot, but I just think such statements are far too blanketed to apply. The gun is always aimed on something, and I don't know about you guys but I'm not willing to put a whole in my floors.

I'm always extremely careful when letting down the hammer. I place one finger firmly atop it and one between it and the firing pin as a secondary precaution. I much prefer to carry it this way as I feel it inherently safer and quicker to use than cocked n locked, much so. I've proven it in my practice at drawing and firing.

It sounds to me like for you you need a bullet trap to take your firearm out of battery http://www.actiontarget.com/store/catalog/category/view/s/clearingtraps/id/24/

I am not "willing" to shoot a hole in my floor, but if the firearm discharges while I am taking it out of battery (this applies to any and all firearms- not just SA), the "safe direction" in my house would be pointed at the floor. I have not fired a round through the floor ever- and pray that I never do. On the other hand, I have had one negligent discharge in my house and it was pure negligence on my part- I did not properly confirm that the chamber was totally clear before handing my 10/22 to my friend and telling him to try the trigger. It put a hole in my bedroom wall:eek:.

Quote:

The guns I'm referring to would be (for open carry) my two Firestars, M45 & M43, and (for concealed) my Phoenix HP22ANB. They are SA semi-autos, not revolvers.
I have absolutely no knowledge of those firearms, hopefully someone else here does.

What I would advise to you would be to train more and learn those guns more intimately (specifically answering your question as it applies to those guns). The more familiar you are with the specific operation of the guns (and and all guns you handle) the safer you and those around you will be. There is no substitute for this. The caution, however, is to never, ever, become too comfortable or casual in your familiarity or you will do as I did with my 10/22 and have a negligent discharge.

Quote:

Thanks for the advisements fellas. And just incase the more safety police of kind were wondering, I wasn't holding my handgun in one hand and hammering against it with my other. I realized what a slide thundering back could do to the hammer in my hand and my face on the other end of it, so I had a buddy do it. Hahahaa just kidding, I rigged some C clamps up with a backstop placed under the hammer gaurd so it couldn't wildly fire into the air. If it had fired the bullet would've gone directly into the ground in front of it.
What you describe is, to me, not a safe practice.:eek: I would never do that, never, ever.

winds-of-change 09-26-2012 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trip286 (Post 955078)
I get the impression you're referring to single action revolvers...

How about one of the most famous lawmen ever? Wyatt Earp.

Legend has it that while sitting in a saloon one day with a small group of companions (believe the famous "Doc" Holliday was there), he propped his foot on a nearby chair, inverting the holster on his hip and tied to his leg, allowing the gun to slip and fall to the floor. The gun went off, blowing a hole through the leg of his own chair, causing it to collapse, and also putting a hole in the table.

I can't confirm this, as the story varies. Supposedly he swore his friends to secrecy on the matter, out of embarrassment. Someone obviously spoke out, or spread rumors. But, I will say that I'd found it to be attributed to at least two sources, Holliday, and Morgan Earp, one of his closest friends and younger brother, respectively.

I'm not sure but aren't guns built differently nowadays then they were back then? I am under the impression that you can drop a gun nowadays and it won't fire. I'm sure it was a revolver in the legend you tell. I don't think that could happen with my GP100.


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