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Old 02-02-2010, 12:51 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Yunus View Post
When I load a round in a semi-auto pistol, I pull the slide back and then release it, being sure to not slow the slide it as it loads. The only FTF's I have had on a Glock were when I did not do this. Is this true of most semi-auto pistols? I haven't had a chance to try this with my 1911 but wanted to get more information about this than just with my own pistols.
This is what our ccw instructor told us, it makes for a greater assurance that the weapon will go into complete battery. I pretty much figured he knew what he was talking about as he had been in Desert Storm and worked for Blackwater in Iraq and had been in more than a few firefights, some being very close quarters.
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Old 02-02-2010, 01:02 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Dillinger View Post
Really??

Even though countless firearms trainers and instructors refer to "Pinch and Pull" when teaching newbs, especially when the weapon is hot?

And what, praytell, was the source of "never" in that statement?? A link would be great.

I don't disagree with your inertia arguement, but I would like to hear about why "never" was used.

Using the thumb and forefinger requires a lot of extra movement. It also requires shifting geometry of your hands.

To grab the back of the slide with the thumb and forefinger requires "tilting" the shooting hand sideways to allow for the "grab". It also requires turning the pistol to expose the rear of the slide. It is weak, slow and inefficient.

So let's assume your offhand is giving support to your strong hand and and is wrapped around the front strap.

Simply open the support hand (extending your fingers forward) and rotate it around to where the fingers stick straight up. Wrap the fingers over the slide and grasp the slide on the serrations on the right side. Your off hand fingers will be in a single plane (very strong), wrapped over the top of the slide (leaving a slight channel for the rear sight so it does not rip your hand up), and the flat/palm of the hand will be on the left side serrations. THIS is a strong grip over the top of the slide. It also benefits from "economy of motion". When done right your hands never actually come out of contact with each other (until you "push and pull" the slide) and require very little movement.

Additionally, the "thumb and finger grab" is weak. If you don't believe me have someone extend a finger and grab it between thumb and forefinger. Then have them pull it free. Easy, right?

Then, have them extend their finger and grab it with a full grip. Now ask them to remove it. It takes a lot of work.

This is why I say "Never" use the thumb and forefinger. It is weak, slow and inefficient.

But if you disagree, by all means do it your way. I'm not here to preach.
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Old 02-02-2010, 01:13 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by IGETEVEN View Post
Indeed, spoken for truth. I do it both ways, it just depends on how fast I need to be back on target when I am shooting.

Jack
+1 Jack.

If you're doing a re-load during fight shooting, who would spend precious time hand releasing the slide from lock??

And if your gun ownership is for PD, why would you practice any other way?

AND, if you are worried/concerned about wear and/or breakage, BUY A BETTER GUN!
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Old 02-02-2010, 01:17 AM   #24
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Yep. We disagree. Completely. Anyone that uses the word "never" in firearms instruction, in the terms of getting a weapon hot and ready to shoot again, automatically raises my hackles.

I would agree with "never" point the weapon at anything you don't want to destroy. But "never" get the weapon ready to fire again, no matter what, in a Life or Death Scenario?

BS.

You do what is necessary, and if your hand is covered in blood? Or you are shot in the hand? You can make an arguement all day about grip strength, which is why your physical explanation is useless. This is about strength to rack versus a recoil spring, not a Tug O War.

Let me ask you this:

If John Browing had wanted the over the top of the slide, full hand grip to be the preferred way to add rounds to a hot weapon, why did he not serrate the whole slide? Why hasn't ANY manufacturer produced a fully serrated slide to this day?

Because it was not designed to be used with a full hand grip for a reload.

There is nothing wrong with a full hand grip. I would encourage everyone to practice it. But to say "never" in any effort to reload a weapon and get it back in the fight?

I don't care if you shove one lone round into the breach and drop the slide with the slide release if it keeps you alive another day.

While it is not "preferred" there is a HUGE difference between "should" and "I did what I had to do to stay alive".

Training is paramount. To just accept one way of training is to fail in the most epic way possible.

As Rob Pincus is prone to say: Respect the man, but question the tactics.

JD

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Old 02-02-2010, 01:33 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Dillinger View Post
First off, did I ever say it was my weapon? During normal use? Never. During real training? Definitely.

Hey Jack, what about you? Your weapon ever get hot to the touch?

Secondly, since you asked. You ever run through a kill house? You ever spend 2 or 3 hours doing nothing but pistol drills?

Weapons get hot. Adjustable sights are sharp, especially to untrained hands when you are teaching them how to shoot well early on. And anyone that says there is no such thing as "Pinch & Pull" as an instruction technique is full of it.

JD
There is a decided difference between "doing something passably" and "doing something right". The average newbie shooter does not usually have a clue what they are getting themselves in for. "Pinch and pull" is fine for a casual shooter. The average newbie shooter won't spend 2-3 hours running pistol drills or clearing a kill house.

But after they have their appetite whetted, they are hungry to learn.

Is "pinch and pull" a recognized technique? Yep. But that does not make it a good one. It is not ergonomic, it is not fast, and it is not strong. So consider me "full of it".

As for adjustable sights, I believe that a "serious use" pistol should have sights without gratuitous sharp edges. Even crappy Elliason Gold Cup sights can be dehorned in about 15 minutes on the range, once the student has realized there is no need for sharp edges. Bomar actually makes an adjustable for "combat use" called the BMCS. It still requires dehorning, but is pretty good as is. But nothing is as slick as a set of fixed Heinie Slant Pros.

To go one step farther, I believe that ALL sharp edges need to be removed from a serious use pistol. From the edge around the ejection port, to the "spikes" on checkering. Triggers should be rounded and serrations removed, sights should be rounded. Basically, the pistol should take on the characteristics of a used bar of soap. A pistol used hard in a 2-5 day class will teach anyone what edges need to be removed.

Too many shooters don't want to scratch or modify their baby, so they put up with a stock pistol. Every pistol I own gets dehorned to some degree if it is ever going to be used for anything more than just "fun" shooting.

And, yes, any pistol used in a serious class will get really hot. Hot enough to feel through most holsters.
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Old 02-02-2010, 01:45 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by RomeoTango View Post
I can't find one manufacturer that recommends not using the slide release/stop.
It's always been a training issue, someone correct me if I'm wrong (with appropriate documentation of course).
I went down to the gun room and re-read the manuals from Colt, Ruger, Para, and Sig. None of them actually say "do not use slide release". They just specificly tell you to pull the slide. I'm just not anal retentive enough to never use the release. I do both during training.
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Old 02-02-2010, 02:05 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by M14sRock View Post
There is a decided difference between "doing something passably" and "doing something right". The average newbie shooter does not usually have a clue what they are getting themselves in for. "Pinch and pull" is fine for a casual shooter. The average newbie shooter won't spend 2-3 hours running pistol drills or clearing a kill house.

But after they have their appetite whetted, they are hungry to learn.

Is "pinch and pull" a recognized technique? Yep. But that does not make it a good one. It is not ergonomic, it is not fast, and it is not strong. So consider me "full of it".

As for adjustable sights, I believe that a "serious use" pistol should have sights without gratuitous sharp edges. Even crappy Elliason Gold Cup sights can be dehorned in about 15 minutes on the range, once the student has realized there is no need for sharp edges. Bomar actually makes an adjustable for "combat use" called the BMCS. It still requires dehorning, but is pretty good as is. But nothing is as slick as a set of fixed Heinie Slant Pros.

To go one step farther, I believe that ALL sharp edges need to be removed from a serious use pistol. From the edge around the ejection port, to the "spikes" on checkering. Triggers should be rounded and serrations removed, sights should be rounded. Basically, the pistol should take on the characteristics of a used bar of soap. A pistol used hard in a 2-5 day class will teach anyone what edges need to be removed.

Too many shooters don't want to scratch or modify their baby, so they put up with a stock pistol. Every pistol I own gets dehorned to some degree if it is ever going to be used for anything more than just "fun" shooting.

And, yes, any pistol used in a serious class will get really hot. Hot enough to feel through most holsters.
M14,

I’ll have to side with JD on this. Your way is your way and your belief is your belief and no one’s idea is wrong. Different people react differently in training and what works for one person may not work for someone else. I have had shooters that do reloads and have shooting stances that do not follow “traditional” ways as many instructors teach, however, it works for them and is not unsafe so who is anyone to say what they are doing or how they do it is wrong. I personally use my slide lock/release when I complete a reload, however, I have also been known to use the finger pinch slingshot with my weapon canted to the side also. Am I slower, I don’t believe so, but then I’ve been shooting a long time. As for your comments on taking all sharp edges off a “serious use pistol” that’s your opinion and in my opinion has a lot of flaws, but that is my opinion and I’m not trying to point out what I believe in versus what you believe in. Now, please understand that I’m not saying your wrong what I’m saying is different people shoot differently and if you what to be a good instructor you need to be flexible with your students and not use the word never. Murphy’s Law is when you say something will never happen is when it will happen and at the most inopportune time.
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Old 02-02-2010, 02:54 AM   #28
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I get your point JD, and yours DZScubie. I'm not arguing in any way. If your way works, by all means do it. But knowing how to do it every way, and actually doing it the most efficient way are not the same thing.

(Isn't it easier to rely on your AAD to pull your cord, DZScubie? Does that make it the right way to do it?)

I do not use the slide stop to drop the slide because I have personally seen it fail to work. I have watched guys with sweaty hands fumble it, and have seen the slide stop method short stroke the gun. But if you choose to use it that is your choice. But that does not mean I won't take a moment to show you what actually is a more reliable method (and explain why I feel that way). It is not just my opinion, and actually does work better.

My observation has been that economy of motion is king when action is required. Keep it simple, and consistent. Simple is fast. It needs to be an automatic action, or you are already too slow. Thought should not be required.

As for doing things in various ways, it is always good to know every possible way to do something. But it is important to pick the one method that is most consistent and practice it. Muscle memory gets created that way. If creating a habit is the goal, I would rather create a good habit.

Using the belt, curb, car bumper, mailbox or boot heel to rack the slide is a very important skill to learn. They will work when you are down to one (either) hand. "Pinch and pull" won't. And in that situation, if using the slide stop to drop the slide causes a malfunction, you need to know how to clear that malfunction with one hand (either hand). And I've noticed that guys that worry about scratching their pistols have a hard time learning these drills.

Race guns with optics, or something like a Nambu Type14, High Standard .22, or Ruger Standard model variant that precludes using the whole hand are excluded from this. They benefit from "pinch and pull" because it may be the only thing that works for them. But I categorize them as "fun guns", not "serious guns".

And if JMB serrated the whole top of the slide, I would probably sand it off to keep it smooth. My hand is not in contact with the top of the slide at all.

Heel of the hand on the left side, fingers on the right side. Push away with the strong hand, and pull towards yourself with the weak hand. Very simple.

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Old 02-02-2010, 03:06 AM   #29
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I've always been trained you pull back on the slide yourself everytime, unless you load the magazine and it goes forward on it's own to chamber the round.

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Old 02-02-2010, 03:18 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Dillinger View Post
While I respect your Ninja Father, I must say....

Ninja Please! ( nods to Suprdave )

If you had any skills, you would be counting rounds and would NEVER shoot a weapon dry. Hence the term "Tactical Reload".

Learn it. Love it.
About that whole "counting rounds" thing. When I run out of fingers, I've still got as many rounds left as a 1911 holds!
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