Firearm & Gun Forum - FireArmsTalk.com > Handguns > Semi-Auto Handguns > Only one 9mm

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-04-2009, 02:18 AM   #31
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: I see you, and you will not know when I will strike
Posts: 24,301
Liked 3478 Times on 1609 Posts
Likes Given: 3590

Default

^ You are completely FIRED!!

D/A-S/A isn't an issue if we are talking about the "best" 9mm out there.

D/A is not a step up, it's a step outside the box. It may, or PROBABLY DIDN'T, change the face of what is considered "IDEAL" for a personal sidearm.

As such, let us examine going from holster to smoking in both cases:

Your Sig Sauer P-226 is holstered in an FBI Cant R/H hip rig, uner your suit coat. In the presence of a threat, you have to pull the weapon, acquire the target and pull back a trigger that is, probably, close to 6 or 8 pounds of pull, while under the duress of stress, adrenalin, sweaty hands, eyes the size of saucers and, probably, a hint of self doubt. 6 to 8 pounds of pull is a LIFETIME in the realm of keeping that muzzle on target.

In the same instance, I have to pull my 1911 from my Miami Classic crossdraw, from under my jacket. The retention system is such that I have a strap over my exposed slide, but under my cocked hammer. In the release process my thumb has already acquired the exact location of the safety, so as I pull the weapon, I have already thumbed my safety off and have to acquire my target with the duress of stress, adrenalin, sweaty hands, eyes the size of saucers and, probably, a hint of self doubt. My trigger pull is less than 2 pounds, so when I acquire my target, I have 1/4 of the pull weight before my first round is heading towards the threat with bad intentions.

I know you are good at math, and figuring odds as being one of the best poker players on this board, so tell me - who are you betting on?

JD

__________________
Dillinger is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2009, 02:34 AM   #32
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,437
Liked 1 Times on 1 Posts

Default

Ah, but you forget "The training". It has been discussed a million times ad nauseum the effects of muscle memory and repetitive training. Anyone who is anyone is familiar enough with their weapon where trigger pull won't be a significant factor in terms of speed and first shot accuracy... so all things truly being equal, as they truly are, DA is logically a better choice.

However if we go by your logic, you must concede that a Glock is the best weapon ever.

__________________
user4 is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2009, 02:46 AM   #33
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: I see you, and you will not know when I will strike
Posts: 24,301
Liked 3478 Times on 1609 Posts
Likes Given: 3590

Default

Training with your weapon isn't going to prepare you for the first time you actually have to use it in haste.

Even with muscle memory you still have to pull 6 to 8 pounds and I have to pull less than two. I like my odds and I will bet on them all day long.

If you ever claim that I am promoting Glock again I will have you strapped to the train tracks and raped by the nearest Amtrak to your location.

No, the Glock isn't EVER the best solution to any real world problem.

JD

__________________
Dillinger is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2009, 02:51 AM   #34
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
SGT-MILLER's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 2,354
Liked 6 Times on 5 Posts

Default

Dillinger posted:

Quote:
No. No they don't.
Yes. Yes they do.

I also am on good talking terms with a few operators. They may carry a different sidearm if needed (sometimes special missions require it, but the three sidearms I listed are the standard SEAL issue weapons. They are called issue weapons for a reason, because they are issued for use in operations.)

A decent amount of the operators I've talked with hate the Glock (I've talked with alot in Iraq...it gets boring when you have down time there...lol)

I should re-phrase about civilian contractors. They use Glock along with lots of other types of sidearms. Heck, I've seen them sporting nice revolvers before.

I'll just put this discussion to bed right now. The best semi-auto sidearms are the following:

1. 1911 pistol
2. Browning High-Power 9mm
3. CZ pistols
4. SIG full size pistols

There ya go. End of discussion. The sarge has spoken. Let's all go get some beer.

__________________
"TRAIN WITH WHAT YOU HAVE, NOT WITH WHAT YOU WISH YOU HAVE."
SGT-MILLER is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2009, 02:58 AM   #35
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,437
Liked 1 Times on 1 Posts

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dillinger View Post
Training with your weapon isn't going to prepare you for the first time you actually have to use it in haste.
I guess the only true way to measure this assumption is talk to people who have actually shot another person in conflict, or pack our boys down to TJ looking for a man who calls himself "Bucho". We'll just keep score like Gimli and Legolas.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dillinger View Post
If you ever claim that I am promoting Glock again I will have you strapped to the train tracks and raped by the nearest Amtrak to your location.

No, the Glock isn't EVER the best solution to any real world problem.

JD
Hahaha. I will sleep with a smile on my face tonight.
__________________
user4 is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2009, 05:52 AM   #36
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Recon 173's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 191
Liked 3 Times on 3 Posts
Likes Given: 2

Default

But, Dillinger, Smith and Wesson DID make a clone of Sig Sauer pistols in order to meet the design specs of an FBI purchase. S&W even copied the decocker of the Sig pistols to meet the demand. Look it up, buddy. The FBI's HRT (Hostage Rescue Team) has had a love affair with Sigs for years. When S&W got to whining about the HRT using Sigs, a foreign gun, the HRT said, "So make us a gun here as good as a Sig with a decocker." That started the ball rolling.

__________________
Recon 173 is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2009, 07:21 AM   #37
FTF_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
matt g's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 3,885
Liked 7 Times on 5 Posts

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ineffable View Post
We can argue personal preference all day and not gain an inch of ground, so let us instead debate the common sense that double action is clearly a step UP on the handgun food chain in terms of speed and first shot accuracy. All those extra digits you use to make your weapon effective steal a little bit off of both of these key factors in considering which, as this thread asks, is the better 9mm.
How does double action allow you to get your first shot off quicker? In a single action, the hammer is already cocked. All you do is thumb the safety off and squeeze the trigger, who's travel is under 1/8" on a quality piece and which breaks around 4#.

On a double action, you still thumb the safety off, then begin to take up the slack from the trigger, then deal with the creep, the deal with the god awful 8-12# break. All the while, you buddy with the single action has his front sight back down and is squeezing the trigger on his 3rd shot.
__________________

"'Did you ever wonder why we had to run for shelter when the promise of a brave new world unfurled beneath a clear blue sky? "
Roger Waters

Vote freedom, join the Libertarian Party.

matt g is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2009, 02:02 PM   #38
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,437
Liked 1 Times on 1 Posts

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by matt g View Post
How does double action allow you to get your first shot off quicker? In a single action, the hammer is already cocked. All you do is thumb the safety off and squeeze the trigger, who's travel is under 1/8" on a quality piece and which breaks around 4#.
Why would the hammer of a SA weapon already be cocked in a holster?

Quote:
Originally Posted by matt g View Post
On a double action, you still thumb the safety off, then begin to take up the slack from the trigger, then deal with the creep, the deal with the god awful 8-12# break. All the while, you buddy with the single action has his front sight back down and is squeezing the trigger on his 3rd shot.
Au contraire mon frere, there is no external safety on the SIG P226 (or any other that I am familiar with)

The SIG is a draw and fire weapon. The 1911 requires cocking of the hammer and releasing of the safety. Assuming you are running around all half cocked (is that where the term comes from?) you still must release a safety. I concede that with training, there is minimal to no extra time needed to release a safety, but you must concede that having less actions to take is logically more beneficial than having more actions. Like JD above, your argument for trigger pull only makes for an endorsement of Glock, because it has all of the features you extol of your 1911 and none of the potential impediments such as cocking or safety release.
__________________
user4 is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2009, 03:34 PM   #39
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: I see you, and you will not know when I will strike
Posts: 24,301
Liked 3478 Times on 1609 Posts
Likes Given: 3590

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ineffable View Post
I guess the only true way to measure this assumption is talk to people who have actually shot another person in conflict, or pack our boys down to TJ looking for a man who calls himself "Bucho". We'll just keep score like Gimli and Legolas.
I get to be Legolas then.

JD
__________________
Dillinger is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2009, 05:10 PM   #40
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: I see you, and you will not know when I will strike
Posts: 24,301
Liked 3478 Times on 1609 Posts
Likes Given: 3590

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Recon 173 View Post
But, Dillinger, Smith and Wesson DID make a clone of Sig Sauer pistols in order to meet the design specs of an FBI purchase. S&W even copied the decocker of the Sig pistols to meet the demand. Look it up, buddy. The FBI's HRT (Hostage Rescue Team) has had a love affair with Sigs for years. When S&W got to whining about the HRT using Sigs, a foreign gun, the HRT said, "So make us a gun here as good as a Sig with a decocker." That started the ball rolling.

I thought we put this to bed in another thread awhile ago, but I don't believe you were around here then, so I will give a brief recant.

The FBI HRT Team was founded in 1982, but the events that led to the FBI looking for drastic changes in caliber were due to a shooting incident in April 11th, 1986 in South Florida.

The head of the FBI FTU named Bill Vanderpool was replaced in August of 1988 by John Hall. Hall, besieged by a mountain of paperwork requests from field agents for "more firepower" issued a mandate that Massad Ayoob descrided in an interview of Gun Week as:

"The FTU was given carte blanche to find, or if necessary, create the best possible autoloading pistol for use by FBI agents. Originally, attention had focussed on the 9mm. Expansion of the analysis to include the .45 caliber slowed the process. It was slowed still further when, almost as an afterthought, Hall proposed researching the 10mm as well. When the administration balked, Hall reminded his bosses that a nation was watching them; FBI was a trend setter, and if they adopted a round that turned out to be eclipsed by something else, a disservice would have been done to law enforcement itself as well as to the Bureau."

In the resulting re-evaluation the Master Jeff Cooper was consulted and offered similiar advice that he had in 1947:

"The 1911 pistol remains the service pistol of choice in the eyes of those who understand the problem. Back when we audited the FBI academy in 1947, I was told that I ought not to use my pistol in their training program because it was not fair. Maybe the first thing one should demand of his sidearm is that it be unfair"

The initial response was that the 1911 was not what was needed.

So, the new guy in charge wants the 10mm - Guess what the FBI went with?

Bren Ten anyone?? Eh?

Then it was determined that the 10mm was too big for the hands of some of the smaller field agents. Not everyone is the size of Robocop10mm.

So then the NEW wonder cartridge the .40 S & W came out. Smith & Wesson gets kudos for creating a market when none, in a lot of people's opinion wasn't "needed". Well played S & W - Well Played.

Now, in 1986 Christopher Whitcomb joined the FBI's HRT Team, a tale he told in the book Cold Zero where he states categorically that upon passing Selection he was issued ( 2 ) custom hand fitted 1911 pistols that they were required to practice with several hours and thousands of rounds per week.

So, it's been proven that:

1) The FBI can't decide WHAT round they like - but they have proven that they are willing to jump all over the board when it comes to trying to re-invent what isn't broken.

AND

2) The FBI's HRT Team uses 1911's - and has for quite awhile now.

JD
__________________
Dillinger is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes