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Old 01-25-2013, 11:48 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by John_Deer View Post
I live in a rural are so my preferences might not be useful to a urban dweller. I believe everyone should have a single action 357 or larger caliber with a 6.5" or longer barrel. It is a great truck or bedside gun. It has the range to bag varmints threatening my livestock. Home invasions are an issue in this area. I want something that will put a bad guy down with one shot or at least stun him long enough to get a long gun. Most conflicts in this area that lead to gun play are with people you know. Everyone I know is not coming with a pistol. They are most likely to bring a shotgun loaded with buckshot. At least we are on equal footing range wise.

The last shooting we had that involved two locals was 2 brothers shooting each other at 10 feet with 357 revolvers. One died and the other is ruined for life. This was a couple years ago.
I don't think I want to move to your neighborhood.
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Old 01-25-2013, 03:49 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by axxe55 View Post
have you ever actually compared the ballistics of either? even a 9mm +P load is only about half of any factory 357 magnum load. even using Hornady's ballistic charts for comparison, and they are some of the hottest factory loads, still yields the 357 Mag. close to twice the muzzle energy of the 9mm +P loads.

short comparison from Hornady's website if you wish to cofirm for yourself.

9mm +P 125 gr. FlexLock bullet.
MV/ME = 1110/369

357 Mag. 125 gr. XTP bullet.
MV/ME = 1500/624

357 Mag. 140 gr. XTP bullet.
MV/ME = 1350/566

see not even close.
I guess what I said was taken out of context with no consideration given to chambering the cartridges in firearms of comparable size and weight. So, let me explain:

Glock 17 Gen 4:
4.5" Barrel (5" for me with a factory threaded barrel)
Overall Length: 6.5"
Magazine Capacity: 17 cartridges (18 for me with a flush +1 magazine extension)
Loaded Weight: 32 ounces (36 ounces for me with a SureFire X300)

Cor-Bon 124 gr 9MM +P JHP
MV: ~1250 feet per second
ME: ~435 foot pounds

Ruger GP 100 Stainless:
3" Barrel
Overall Length: 8.5"
Cylinder Capacity: 6 cartridges
Unloaded Weight: 36 ounces

Cor-Bon 125 gr .357 Magnum JHP
MV: ~1250 feet per second
ME: ~450 foot pounds

Please note that what I stated in my post did not apply to +P 9MM ammunition, but rather 9MM +P+. I realize that +P+ ammunition is not standardized and some manufacturers make the ammunition hotter than others.

I make my Glock 17 Gen 4 equivalent in weight to the Ruger GP 100 by adding a SureFire X300 weaponlight to the accessory rail and a factory 5" threaded barrel. I use a Brass Stacker +1 magazine enhancement to give each factory Glock magazine a capacity of 18 rounds with no increase in the length of the magazine. I use a 5" factory threaded barrel to make the barrel extended to the point where the X300 weapon light stops at.

So, you can get a Ruger GP 100 and have a weapon that's 4 ounces heavier, unloaded, than a fully loaded Glock 17 Gen 4 with 1/3 the ammunition capacity, equivalent ballistics from simple +P 9MM ammunition (not the potentially more powerful +P+ that I advocated using for carry use), and your Ruger revolver will still be 2" longer than the Glock.

I guess if weight, cost of ammunition, accessory options, and magazine capacity are not considerations, then you can always put a longer barrel on a .357 Magnum revolver and achieve superior ballistics. If we made the length of the two handguns equivalent and gave the Ruger a 1" barrel, the 9MM +P ammunition would give superior performance.

All revolvers are not space or weight efficient in comparison to pistols chambered for cartridges of equivalent power. If there's an exception to this, I'd like someone to point it out to me. The .357 Magnum ammunition is considerably more expensive to practice with than 9MM ammunition is. The Chiappa Rhino is the only .357 Magnum revolver that I know of that's space efficient enough to be comparable to a modern 9MM pistol if length is equivalent between the two handguns. If you purchased a S&W scandium frame revolver, you'd simply have a .357 Magnum revolver that's painful to shoot and difficult to control for fast follow-up shots. Having shot various lightweight .357 Magnum revolvers apart from the Chiappa Rhino, I can say that it is not fun and I will stick with steel frames. The Rhino is the only controllable lightweight .357 Magnum revolver that I know of and it will still be 2 inches longer than the Glock if you want to see a ballistics performance advantage over an equivalently sized Glock using only 9MM +P ammunition.
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Old 01-25-2013, 04:33 PM   #33
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I would like to further note that while I am personally enamored with the Colt Trooper and Python revolvers, which is why I have a few in the collection, I recognize that these revolvers are not current handgun technology, however beautiful and well built they may be.

Some day whereupon I become independently wealthy, I'll pick up a Korth and 5 or 10 cases of .357 Magnum ammunition to use with my new toy. I mostly practice with .38 Special in .357 Magnum revolvers because cost and availability is an issue. The boom of .357 is fun, but the bite it takes outta my wallet is not.

Any good 10MM auto pistol cartridge is going to be more size and weight efficient than a .357 Magnum cartridge and if you really lust for power, it's possible to make .45 ACP cartridges perform similarly to light .44 Magnum cartridges (.460 Rowland).

There's an upper limit to what's easily controllable for the majority of handgun shooters out there who want a pistol or revolver that's economical to shoot, concealable, lightweight, and easy to get back on target for fast follow-up shots. If you want a fun gun, the sky's the limit. That is, unless you have a wife or girlfriend, and then her tolerance of your hobby is the limit.

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Old 01-25-2013, 06:06 PM   #34
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Hey everyone! I have been researching handgun ownership for the past month or two and I think I am ready to bite the bullet. I have shot handguns/small cal rifles about a dozen times or so and have taken a handgun safety class at a local shooting range, so I am not a complete beginner to sure have a lot to learn to still.

Here's my main issue, I cant decide which caliber handgun to buy. My logic tells me that this is just like any other skill and that one should work there way up equipment wise as they become more skilled. For this reason I have been leaning towards a .22 or maybe a 9mm. That way ammo is cheap enough so I can get some practice under my belt before moving up. Right now my purpose for gun ownership is to just have fun, go out shooting cans in the desert, and master the basic skills of pistols.

However, I am obviously catching heat from my buddies who are already gun owners saying I should get a 40 or 45 because .22's and 9's are "wimpy guns" and I obviously know that but Im just trying to plink around at the moment.

So basically, should I just tell them to suck a fat one and stick with my gut and go the smaller caliber route or would I really be wasting money by getting a plinker? Sorry for the long post.
They tell you that out of either ignorance or personal incompetence. Judging by what you say here. Get a sig sauer p226 in .22 and you can get the caliber xchange kit from sig that will convert you to 9mm or .40 later. My bedside gun is a sig p226 mk25 in 9mm. I have no doubt whatsoever of its capability to stop a threat.
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Old 01-25-2013, 06:24 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by axxe55 View Post

have you ever actually compared the ballistics of either? even a 9mm +P load is only about half of any factory 357 magnum load. even using Hornady's ballistic charts for comparison, and they are some of the hottest factory loads, still yields the 357 Mag. close to twice the muzzle energy of the 9mm +P loads.

short comparison from Hornady's website if you wish to cofirm for yourself.

9mm +P 125 gr. FlexLock bullet.
MV/ME = 1110/369

357 Mag. 125 gr. XTP bullet.
MV/ME = 1500/624

357 Mag. 140 gr. XTP bullet.
MV/ME = 1350/566

see not even close.
I've always considered that little MAG at the end of a caliber to stand for +p+. Obviously not literally, but it's amazing how much more punch a Magnum round has. I hated shooting my dad's 357. Could be because it was a revolver, could be the round. My buddy has a 44 revolver, shoot it occasionally because he forces it down my throat (figuratively of course). I hate it too, but pretend to enjoy it too be nice. Again, not sure if it's due to the gun or round, I've decided to assume it's both and stay clear of both Revolvers and high caliber Magnums.

These results are interesting. Wouldn't say surprising, but the energy difference is quite a bit more than I expected.
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Old 01-25-2013, 06:30 PM   #36
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I've always considered that little MAG at the end of a caliber to stand for +p+. Obviously not literally, but it's amazing how much more punch a Magnum round has. I hated shooting my dad's 357. Could be because it was a revolver, could be the round. My buddy has a 44 revolver, shoot it occasionally because he forces it down my throat (figuratively of course). I hate it too, but pretend to enjoy it too be nice. Again, not sure if it's due to the gun or round, I've decided to assume it's both and stay clear of both Revolvers and high caliber Magnums.

These results are interesting. Wouldn't say surprising, but the energy difference is quite a bit more than I expected.
That's because unlike semi-autos, you are the mainspring.
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Old 01-25-2013, 06:41 PM   #37
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That's because unlike semi-autos, you are the mainspring.
It wasn't the kick, actually, I like that part. It's the grip angle and awkward pointing. Its not at all natural to me. It's the DAO trigger or having to cock the hammer manually each time with an SA. I just loathe Revolvers in every way possible. But no big deal, I don't have to buy one so I'm happy. Lol
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Old 01-25-2013, 06:46 PM   #38
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I've always considered that little MAG at the end of a caliber to stand for +p+. Obviously not literally, but it's amazing how much more punch a Magnum round has. I hated shooting my dad's 357. Could be because it was a revolver, could be the round. My buddy has a 44 revolver, shoot it occasionally because he forces it down my throat (figuratively of course). I hate it too, but pretend to enjoy it too be nice. Again, not sure if it's due to the gun or round, I've decided to assume it's both and stay clear of both Revolvers and high caliber Magnums.

These results are interesting. Wouldn't say surprising, but the energy difference is quite a bit more than I expected.
Yes, if you get a revolver that's several inches longer than a pistol, you can get better ballistic performance from a revolver. The .357 Magnum doesn't pull away from the 9MM +P+ until the revolver's barrel is four inches in length or longer. The question is, what price in length, weight, and controllability are you willing to pay for a little more power? You're not going to make any normal form factor revolver that's equivalent in length to a pistol with a five inch barrel ballistically equivalent. The barrel will have to be much shorter on the revolver and the revolver will still weigh as much or more than the pistol.

I'm sure if we work at it, we can cherry pick examples of cartridges that perform better in this pistol or that revolver, but the example I picked was ammunition from one manufacturer that produces commonly available defense ammunition for both chamberings with almost identical projectile weights.

If or when someone manages to produce a polymer frame revolver with steel inserts, the weight advantage of the pistol will be nullified, but the overall length and capacity issues aren't going away.
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