Firearm & Gun Forum - FireArmsTalk.com > Handguns > Semi-Auto Handguns > The Myth of Energy Transfer

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-21-2012, 01:39 AM   #1
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
FCross7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 1,017
Default The Myth of Energy Transfer

While doing a search for something a bit ago, I came across a wonderful article that points out some flaws in information and research that many have come to believe as facts.

The basis of the article is energy transfer in handgun bullets, and how it's unimportant.

Before posting in this thread, I respectfully ask that you read the ENTIRE article first, and be respectful in any posts made.

I suspect this thread will bring about a good bit of debating, but please keep it civil. Many people will have different opinions, and that's a good thing. Just be mindful of this.

I don't hope to change everyone's mind on handgun caliber and ammo selection, but I do hope to open some people's minds, and I hope that everyone will come out knowing something they didn't know before.

Here's the link:

The Myth of Energy Transfer

-Fred

__________________

"Breathe when you can, shoot when you should."
-Rob Leatham

ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ!

"Qui desiderat pacem, bellum praeparat; nemo provocare ne offendere audet quem intelliget superiorem esse pugnaturem"

FCross7 is offline  
 
Reply With Quote

Join FirearmsTalk.com Today - It's Free!

Are you a firearms enthusiast? Then we hope you will join the community. You will gain access to post, create threads, private message, upload images, join groups and more.

Firearms Talk is owned and operated by fellow firearms enthusiasts. We strive to offer a non-commercial community to learn and share information.

Join FirearmsTalk.com Today! - Click Here


Old 01-21-2012, 01:53 AM   #2
Moderator
FTF_MODERATOR.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
JonM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Rochester WI,Rochester WI
Posts: 16,929
Liked 5119 Times on 2665 Posts
Likes Given: 310

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by FCross7 View Post
While doing a search for something a bit ago, I came across a wonderful article that points out some flaws in information and research that many have come to believe as facts.

The basis of the article is energy transfer in handgun bullets, and how it's unimportant.

Before posting in this thread, I respectfully ask that you read the ENTIRE article first, and be respectful in any posts made.

I suspect this thread will bring about a good bit of debating, but please keep it civil. Many people will have different opinions, and that's a good thing. Just be mindful of this.

I don't hope to change everyone's mind on handgun caliber and ammo selection, but I do hope to open some people's minds, and I hope that everyone will come out knowing something they didn't know before.

Here's the link:

The Myth of Energy Transfer

-Fred
nothing there i really disagree with.

its also why i choose to use the largest diameter round i can realistically carry. 45acp 230grn. in HP format it will retain enough weight to go the distances if the jacket and core seperate. it will also cause a large hole to occur leading to the biggest chance of usefull fluid leakage to occur the fastest in case there is no expansion.
__________________

"Gun control: The theory that a woman found dead in an alley, raped and strangled with her panty hose, is somehow morally superior to a woman explaining to police how her attacker got that fatal bullet wound." — L. Neil Smith

The problem with being stupid is you cannot simply decide to stop doing dumb things...

JonM is online now  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2012, 02:00 AM   #3
JTJ
FTF_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
JTJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Lake Havasu,Arizona
Posts: 5,705
Liked 1660 Times on 905 Posts
Likes Given: 529

Default

Terminal ballistics as viewed in a morgue
This link was posted in a previous thread and is quite informative as was your link.
__________________

Patron Member NRA
"I would not be an old man if I had not been an armed young man." JTJ
You are either pro gun or pro crime.

JTJ is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2012, 02:07 AM   #4
Moderator
FTF_MODERATOR.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
c3shooter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Third bunker on the right,Central Virginia
Posts: 16,260
Liked 8315 Times on 3595 Posts
Likes Given: 1279

Default

Good article, nothing I disagree with.

There are basically two ways to stop a person. First, disconnect the brain from the body. Head shot or high spinal cord shot- both EXTREMELY difficult to do with a handgun in a combat setting.

Second- shut the brain down from lack of blood. Bigger wound cavity= quicker drain down of blood. Have a friend that is a professor of Veterinary Medicine, and a big game hunter. As he expressed it- "You want two holes- one lets blood out, one lets air in."

__________________

What we have heah is.... failure to communicate.

c3shooter is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2012, 02:12 AM   #5
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: West, by God, Funroe,Louisiana
Posts: 18,707
Liked 9193 Times on 5052 Posts
Likes Given: 74

Default

Sorry, don't agree with all of it.
I'm not a ballistician, but I have a hard time believing that energy transfer has no effect as the article would lead some to believe.

Blood loss is a major factor, but it is not THE factor.

__________________
trip286 is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2012, 02:31 AM   #6
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
jeepejeep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 695
Liked 75 Times on 40 Posts
Likes Given: 291

Default

Very informative. There are many theories about killing power, stopping power, knock down power, etc. To me the actual reports from the street (and morgue) say it best. I totally agree that no firearm will knock a man off his feet, certainly no handgun caliber. Also people who rely on ballistic gelatin tests are fooling them selves. It is not clothes, tissue, organs and bone. It's useful for comparing bullets against each other in ballistic gel nothing more.

__________________

"An unarmed man can only flee from evil, but evil is not overcome by fleeing from it"

Jeff Cooper


Last edited by jeepejeep; 01-21-2012 at 02:40 AM.
jeepejeep is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2012, 02:34 AM   #7
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Magnum27's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 249
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JTJ
Terminal ballistics as viewed in a morgue
This link was posted in a previous thread and is quite informative as was your link.
Interesting info from ONE viewpoint and I don't see any actual data that he even compiled so you can see his own numbers. A tremendous amount of opinions and theories but NO facts. I am sure you could get someone else in his position to give an 180 degree different view. Science matters - this comes across as an expert opinion but there are no facts, details or anything subjective to analyze - just a long opinion piece.
__________________
Magnum27 is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2012, 02:57 AM   #8
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
FCross7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 1,017
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by trip286 View Post
Sorry, don't agree with all of it.
I'm not a ballistician, but I have a hard time believing that energy transfer has no effect as the article would lead some to believe.

Blood loss is a major factor, but it is not THE factor.
I believe what he's saying, and I've heard others say it too, that energy transfer has no effect at the velocities handgun bullets are traveling. I don't know if it's because of the amount of energy, it bullet speed affects the speed at which energy travels or something else entirely.

-Fred
__________________

"Breathe when you can, shoot when you should."
-Rob Leatham

ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ!

"Qui desiderat pacem, bellum praeparat; nemo provocare ne offendere audet quem intelliget superiorem esse pugnaturem"

FCross7 is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2012, 02:59 AM   #9
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
thembones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 7
Default

Interesting...any idea about the loudness of each caliber? I thought the .357 was louder then other calibers, and wouldn't that noise increase the chance of a "psychological stop"?

__________________
thembones is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2012, 03:03 AM   #10
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
FCross7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 1,017
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnum27 View Post
Interesting info from ONE viewpoint and I don't see any actual data that he even compiled so you can see his own numbers. A tremendous amount of opinions and theories but NO facts. I am sure you could get someone else in his position to give an 180 degree different view. Science matters - this comes across as an expert opinion but there are no facts, details or anything subjective to analyze - just a long opinion piece.
The data is what I see as the issue. First, what type of data is best? How do you go about obtaining that data?

All the author was trying to do was use real world situations and scenarios to show that many other things transfer way more energy to the human body with little to no effect, thus nullifying the argument that energy is important when comparing handgun calibers.

The author's opinion and mine are similar, in that penetration and, and in that same regard, wound cavity size are EVERYTHING when it comes to incapacitation using a handgun.

I think those "One shot stop" tests are total bogus nonsense that don't translate to real world situations and scenarios.

-Fred
__________________

"Breathe when you can, shoot when you should."
-Rob Leatham

ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ!

"Qui desiderat pacem, bellum praeparat; nemo provocare ne offendere audet quem intelliget superiorem esse pugnaturem"

FCross7 is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Firearms Forum Replies Last Post
Kill marks, real or myth? Andlyn Curio & Relic Discussion 6 04-26-2011 05:12 AM
sig 2022 in .40 myth or legend + rant gunsavy General Handgun Discussion 3 12-09-2010 05:10 PM
.223/5.56 is less suited for short barrels than other chamberings: myth? LethalJustice Auto & Semi-Auto Discussion 3 07-22-2010 01:05 PM
The Myth of Knockdown Power KalashnikovJosh General Handgun Discussion 27 06-23-2010 03:15 AM