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-   -   The Myth of Energy Transfer (http://www.firearmstalk.com/forums/f15/myth-energy-transfer-55955/)

FCross7 01-21-2012 02:39 AM

The Myth of Energy Transfer
 
While doing a search for something a bit ago, I came across a wonderful article that points out some flaws in information and research that many have come to believe as facts.

The basis of the article is energy transfer in handgun bullets, and how it's unimportant.

Before posting in this thread, I respectfully ask that you read the ENTIRE article first, and be respectful in any posts made.

I suspect this thread will bring about a good bit of debating, but please keep it civil. Many people will have different opinions, and that's a good thing. Just be mindful of this.

I don't hope to change everyone's mind on handgun caliber and ammo selection, but I do hope to open some people's minds, and I hope that everyone will come out knowing something they didn't know before.

Here's the link:

The Myth of Energy Transfer

-Fred

JonM 01-21-2012 02:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FCross7 (Post 683690)
While doing a search for something a bit ago, I came across a wonderful article that points out some flaws in information and research that many have come to believe as facts.

The basis of the article is energy transfer in handgun bullets, and how it's unimportant.

Before posting in this thread, I respectfully ask that you read the ENTIRE article first, and be respectful in any posts made.

I suspect this thread will bring about a good bit of debating, but please keep it civil. Many people will have different opinions, and that's a good thing. Just be mindful of this.

I don't hope to change everyone's mind on handgun caliber and ammo selection, but I do hope to open some people's minds, and I hope that everyone will come out knowing something they didn't know before.

Here's the link:

The Myth of Energy Transfer

-Fred

nothing there i really disagree with.

its also why i choose to use the largest diameter round i can realistically carry. 45acp 230grn. in HP format it will retain enough weight to go the distances if the jacket and core seperate. it will also cause a large hole to occur leading to the biggest chance of usefull fluid leakage to occur the fastest in case there is no expansion.

JTJ 01-21-2012 03:00 AM

Terminal ballistics as viewed in a morgue
This link was posted in a previous thread and is quite informative as was your link.

c3shooter 01-21-2012 03:07 AM

Good article, nothing I disagree with.

There are basically two ways to stop a person. First, disconnect the brain from the body. Head shot or high spinal cord shot- both EXTREMELY difficult to do with a handgun in a combat setting.

Second- shut the brain down from lack of blood. Bigger wound cavity= quicker drain down of blood. Have a friend that is a professor of Veterinary Medicine, and a big game hunter. As he expressed it- "You want two holes- one lets blood out, one lets air in."

trip286 01-21-2012 03:12 AM

Sorry, don't agree with all of it.
I'm not a ballistician, but I have a hard time believing that energy transfer has no effect as the article would lead some to believe.

Blood loss is a major factor, but it is not THE factor.

jeepejeep 01-21-2012 03:31 AM

Very informative. There are many theories about killing power, stopping power, knock down power, etc. To me the actual reports from the street (and morgue) say it best. I totally agree that no firearm will knock a man off his feet, certainly no handgun caliber. Also people who rely on ballistic gelatin tests are fooling them selves. It is not clothes, tissue, organs and bone. It's useful for comparing bullets against each other in ballistic gel nothing more.

Magnum27 01-21-2012 03:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JTJ
Terminal ballistics as viewed in a morgue
This link was posted in a previous thread and is quite informative as was your link.

Interesting info from ONE viewpoint and I don't see any actual data that he even compiled so you can see his own numbers. A tremendous amount of opinions and theories but NO facts. I am sure you could get someone else in his position to give an 180 degree different view. Science matters - this comes across as an expert opinion but there are no facts, details or anything subjective to analyze - just a long opinion piece.

FCross7 01-21-2012 03:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trip286 (Post 683720)
Sorry, don't agree with all of it.
I'm not a ballistician, but I have a hard time believing that energy transfer has no effect as the article would lead some to believe.

Blood loss is a major factor, but it is not THE factor.

I believe what he's saying, and I've heard others say it too, that energy transfer has no effect at the velocities handgun bullets are traveling. I don't know if it's because of the amount of energy, it bullet speed affects the speed at which energy travels or something else entirely.

-Fred

thembones 01-21-2012 03:59 AM

Interesting...any idea about the loudness of each caliber? I thought the .357 was louder then other calibers, and wouldn't that noise increase the chance of a "psychological stop"?

FCross7 01-21-2012 04:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magnum27 (Post 683742)
Interesting info from ONE viewpoint and I don't see any actual data that he even compiled so you can see his own numbers. A tremendous amount of opinions and theories but NO facts. I am sure you could get someone else in his position to give an 180 degree different view. Science matters - this comes across as an expert opinion but there are no facts, details or anything subjective to analyze - just a long opinion piece.

The data is what I see as the issue. First, what type of data is best? How do you go about obtaining that data?

All the author was trying to do was use real world situations and scenarios to show that many other things transfer way more energy to the human body with little to no effect, thus nullifying the argument that energy is important when comparing handgun calibers.

The author's opinion and mine are similar, in that penetration and, and in that same regard, wound cavity size are EVERYTHING when it comes to incapacitation using a handgun.

I think those "One shot stop" tests are total bogus nonsense that don't translate to real world situations and scenarios.

-Fred


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