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Old 01-03-2009, 06:22 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by stalkingbear View Post
There's been plenty of instances where firearms being produced HAVE defused/desclated the situation, BUT if you're not totally comitted to using deadly force if NEEDED, stick with a Taser or pepper spray.

Another thing-you'll NEVER hear of somebody bragging they took a life-even in self defense, you WILL hear of them being happy to have survived the situation, or of SAVING lives stemming from it. Sadly to say, anyone who has ever survived a REAL firefight-wether civilian, law enforcment, or military, comes out of it permanently changed-even IF it was totally justified. It WILL dominate your thoughts and dreams for some time afterwards-even permanent to some degree! I'm POSITIVE some members will back me up on that.

Also, you WILL be questioned later as to the tiniest details as to wether it was justified or not. ANY act that was uneccesary could likely land YOU behind bars. Everything pertaining to the occurence, and a LOT that don't, will be gone over with an fine tooth comb.
Regardless of whether justified or not, you will feel sad about killing another human being. It is better to be sad than to be room temperature.

If involved in a shooting and you are the survivor, this is what you MUST do:
During the first second of post-shooting quiet, do a tactical reload and store the ejected, but not yet empty, mag in a convenient pocket, DO NOT put it in your mag pouch! This prevents you grabbing it later thinking its fresh. During this reload do a 360 clearing of the area for additional Bravo Gulfs.

Draw down on the Bad Guy's center mass and watch his hands as you approach. Hands kill, everything else is a distraction! Clear the Tango of any weapons and make sure he is secured. (read: no longer a threat) DO NOT shoot again unless he moves at you. By this time you will more than likely be on someone's candid camera!

If the Tango is still alive tie his hands/feet. Once secured, safe and holster your weapon, start to administer first aid (you are not a doctor that can pronounce) and yell "CALL 911! CALL EMS!". DO THIS!

If you are alone, and during CPR, call 911 and tell them "There has been a shooting at **your location**, I'm doing CPR, get here fast!" and hang up. Do not speak to anyone, frequently visually clear the area for BGs and continue CPR until the police/EMS arrives.

When asked by the police the only thing you EVER say is, "He said he was going to kill me. I believed him. I'm sorry, Officer, but I'm very upset now. I can't say anything more. Please speak with my attorney."

You will need to surrender your identification, CCW license and weapon. With this completed, request to be released to return home, you’re about to be sick. If everything is in order they should return your ID and CCWL and let you go. With the exception of yes or no answers to ID questions DO NOT answer any other questions! You have invoked the attorney card and are not required to speak to them. You are upset, sick and want to go home! By now they have run and verified your info, know where you live and should let you go.

Be sure you have a lawyer prior to carrying. Call the attorney now. If it's late, you will probably get a service or machine. Go on record then, do not wait until you can speak to him in person and leave this message; "This is (You) and I require your services for a shooting I was involved in an hour ago."

NEVER
(did I say never?) say you shot somebody, not to anyone other than your retained lawyer and not even to him on the phone. If you re-read the above you will notice you have NOT once said you shot your gun much less the Tango. You have not lied but more importantly, you have not provided the Tango's legal defense team anything they can run with. This is very important. Invoke the attorney card and say nothing, even when questioned about you gun being full. You are not required to! Keep saying you're sick and need to go home.

Mark Twain said it best; "If you tell the truth, you don't have to remember anything."
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Old 01-03-2009, 07:04 PM   #22
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Regardless of whether justified or not, you will feel sad about killing another human being. It is better to be sad than to be room temperature.

If involved in a shooting and you are the survivor, this is what you MUST do:
During the first second of post-shooting quiet, do a tactical reload and store the ejected, but not yet empty, mag in a convenient pocket, DO NOT put it in your mag pouch! This prevents you grabbing it later thinking its fresh. During this reload do a 360 clearing of the area for additional Bravo Gulfs.

Draw down on the Bad Guy's center mass and watch his hands as you approach. Hands kill, everything else is a distraction! Clear the Tango of any weapons and make sure he is secured. (read: no longer a threat) DO NOT shoot again unless he moves at you. By this time you will more than likely be on someone's candid camera!

If the Tango is still alive tie his hands/feet. Once secured, safe and holster your weapon, start to administer first aid (you are not a doctor that can pronounce) and yell "CALL 911! CALL EMS!". DO THIS!

If you are alone, and during CPR, call 911 and tell them "There has been a shooting at **your location**, I'm doing CPR, get here fast!" and hang up. Do not speak to anyone, frequently visually clear the area for BGs and continue CPR until the police/EMS arrives.

When asked by the police the only thing you EVER say is, "He said he was going to kill me. I believed him. I'm sorry, Officer, but I'm very upset now. I can't say anything more. Please speak with my attorney."

You will need to surrender your identification, CCW license and weapon. With this completed, request to be released to return home, you’re about to be sick. If everything is in order they should return your ID and CCWL and let you go. With the exception of yes or no answers to ID questions DO NOT answer any other questions! You have invoked the attorney card and are not required to speak to them. You are upset, sick and want to go home! By now they have run and verified your info, know where you live and should let you go.

Be sure you have a lawyer prior to carrying. Call the attorney now. If it's late, you will probably get a service or machine. Go on record then, do not wait until you can speak to him in person and leave this message; "This is (You) and I require your services for a shooting I was involved in an hour ago."

NEVER
(did I say never?) say you shot somebody, not to anyone other than your retained lawyer and not even to him on the phone. If you re-read the above you will notice you have NOT once said you shot your gun much less the Tango. You have not lied but more importantly, you have not provided the Tango's legal defense team anything they can run with. This is very important. Invoke the attorney card and say nothing, even when questioned about you gun being full. You are not required to! Keep saying you're sick and need to go home.

Mark Twain said it best; "If you tell the truth, you don't have to remember anything."
There is no reason for you to apologize to the officer, an apology infers guilt.
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Old 01-03-2009, 07:26 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by matt g View Post
It's just your life, why not try to save a buck. Also, a quality piece is an investment and if taken care of will be around for generations.

Have you looked at High Points? You can pick up one of their 9mm pistols for about $150. I bought my wife one of their .380s as a trainer gun. It's been nothing but reliable, never a fail to feed, fire or extract. They carry a lifetime warranty too, so if you do ever have problems with it, it gets fixed for free.



QFT. This helps explain my reasoning for the 1911 and conversion slide. I recommend the 9mm, only because you didn't state your level of experience in the first post. The .45 ACP 1911 slinging 230 gr. Hydrashocks is my choice.

RIP little buddy.

Well, I've decided that my first gun is going to be for practice purposes only. I haven't looked at High Points yet. I'll definitely look into them.


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Originally Posted by matt g View Post
True. The pistol shouldn't even considered unless it is to protect someone's life, limb or eyesight for an attacker. You need to be absolutely committed to killing an individual before you draw.

Using a firearm to "scare" someone is stupid and dangerous. At close ranges, it is very easy to strip a pistol from someone who hasn't been trained in weapons retention. Once that pistol is stripped from you, you can almost guarantee that you're going to get shot by it. Also, you run the very likely risk that everyone else involved in the fray will be shot also.

Here's a fun scenario to wrap your head around: You and your girlfriend are on a double date with a buddy and his woman. On your way out of the restaurant/movie theater/bar, a random individual approaches your buddy's girl and starts hitting on her. Doing the right thing, you try to avoid confrontation and tell the guy to leave her alone and start off on your way.

He becomes more aggressive and grabs your buddy's girl by the arm and starts talking about how she is going back to his place with him.

This would be the point that you'd decide that you're going to scare this guy. You draw and brandish your piece. He throws your buddy's girl to the ground and in one quick and takes your pistol from you, because you weren't committed to using it. In the same movement used to strip you of the pistol, he drops 2 bullets into your chest and, because your buddy lunged for him when he grabbed your pistol, your buddy takes 3 to the gut.

This causes the girls to begin screaming, so one gets a bullet to the head and the other gets hit in the thigh, severing her femoral artery.

All 4 of you are now dead. This exact same scenario happened in the city I live in about a month and a half ago. This is also the reason to use a proven man stopper round like a heavy .45 ACP hollow point. Had you waited until the proper time to shoot, the attacker is likely going to be pretty pumped up. A .22 LR is going to do nothing to stop him. You'd be very lucky in a .380 would even.
Woah, that makes me realize the dedication that I have to have in order to properly conceal and use a gun for defense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SGT-MILLER View Post
Here's what I always start off my CQC training with when I teach the troops in my unit.

"The gun, in it's many shapes and sizes is designed to do one thing, and one thing only. It is designed to kill. It is designed to kill a living thing by delivering a piece of steel at a high velocity into the vital parts of that living thing, rendering it into a dead thing. If you cannot deal with the fact that guns are made to take life, you should not be holding a firearm at this time."

If you decide to draw your weapon, you had better follow through with it. Trying to display a "show of force" by just pulling the weapon out is dangerous to you and everyone around you.

Fighting for life is not meant to be fair. You do not have to give the threat a warning. You do not have to "square-off" with the threat for the sake of honor. If the threat is endangering your life or others, all you need to do is pull your weapon (quickly), put your sight picture on center-of-mass, and squeeze the trigger until the threat is gone (i.e. one the ground either screaming and immobile or dead).

That person is trying to take away your right to go home to your family at the end of the day. You can either let the threat win because you decided not to protect what is rightfully yours, or you can have the mindset of "You WILL NOT take my life, I WILL take yours!"

Here's a clip of Marines in training. This clip gives a good idea of what attitude you should take when it comes to defending your life and your loved ones.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuctkYYywZ0
Great information^

Quote:
Originally Posted by canebrake View Post
Regardless of whether justified or not, you will feel sad about killing another human being. It is better to be sad than to be room temperature.

If involved in a shooting and you are the survivor, this is what you MUST do:
During the first second of post-shooting quiet, do a tactical reload and store the ejected, but not yet empty, mag in a convenient pocket, DO NOT put it in your mag pouch! This prevents you grabbing it later thinking its fresh. During this reload do a 360 clearing of the area for additional Bravo Gulfs.

Draw down on the Bad Guy's center mass and watch his hands as you approach. Hands kill, everything else is a distraction! Clear the Tango of any weapons and make sure he is secured. (read: no longer a threat) DO NOT shoot again unless he moves at you. By this time you will more than likely be on someone's candid camera!

If the Tango is still alive tie his hands/feet. Once secured, safe and holster your weapon, start to administer first aid (you are not a doctor that can pronounce) and yell "CALL 911! CALL EMS!". DO THIS!

If you are alone, and during CPR, call 911 and tell them "There has been a shooting at **your location**, I'm doing CPR, get here fast!" and hang up. Do not speak to anyone, frequently visually clear the area for BGs and continue CPR until the police/EMS arrives.

When asked by the police the only thing you EVER say is, "He said he was going to kill me. I believed him. I'm sorry, Officer, but I'm very upset now. I can't say anything more. Please speak with my attorney."

You will need to surrender your identification, CCW license and weapon. With this completed, request to be released to return home, you’re about to be sick. If everything is in order they should return your ID and CCWL and let you go. With the exception of yes or no answers to ID questions DO NOT answer any other questions! You have invoked the attorney card and are not required to speak to them. You are upset, sick and want to go home! By now they have run and verified your info, know where you live and should let you go.

Be sure you have a lawyer prior to carrying. Call the attorney now. If it's late, you will probably get a service or machine. Go on record then, do not wait until you can speak to him in person and leave this message; "This is (You) and I require your services for a shooting I was involved in an hour ago."

NEVER
(did I say never?) say you shot somebody, not to anyone other than your retained lawyer and not even to him on the phone. If you re-read the above you will notice you have NOT once said you shot your gun much less the Tango. You have not lied but more importantly, you have not provided the Tango's legal defense team anything they can run with. This is very important. Invoke the attorney card and say nothing, even when questioned about you gun being full. You are not required to! Keep saying you're sick and need to go home.

Mark Twain said it best; "If you tell the truth, you don't have to remember anything."
I like that. I will definitely follow those instructions if I'm ever in this situation.
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Old 01-03-2009, 07:41 PM   #24
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There is no reason for you to apologize to the officer, an apology infers guilt.
With him or the EMS team finding you performing CPR on the Tango and having your weapon holstered will scream your contrition and innocence.
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Old 01-03-2009, 07:50 PM   #25
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With him or the EMS team finding you performing CPR on the Tango and having your weapon holstered will scream your contrition and innocence.
Touche'. The act of performing CPR does override one or two words.
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Old 01-03-2009, 07:51 PM   #26
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Woah, that makes me realize the dedication that I have to have in order to properly conceal and use a gun for defense.
Good, too many people carry without thought.
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Old 01-03-2009, 08:30 PM   #27
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Look at my thread regarding afforable defensive pistols. It may give you some more helpful information.

http://www.firearmstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9570

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Old 01-03-2009, 09:41 PM   #28
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Good, too many people carry without thought.
I'm also going to attend a free training course that a place called Franklin's near me offers.

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Originally Posted by SGT-MILLER View Post
Look at my thread regarding afforable defensive pistols. It may give you some more helpful information.

http://www.firearmstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9570
Cool! I'll definitely check it out!
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Old 01-03-2009, 09:48 PM   #29
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too many people carry without thought.
matt g, I could not have said it any better!
CCW is what I perceive to be the most personally responsible decision I have made third only to my wedding vows and active service to this great country. Concealed carry is NOT playing cowboys and indians (pardon my age tell) and I’m afraid that’s exactly what many are doing today. When we post encounters as entertainment rather than a positive outcome from our correct decisions we only feed to a “Denny Crain” type response.
When you decide to carry a concealed weapon, you have burdened yourself with tremendous responsibilities including, but not limited to, physical fitness, firearm and CQB training, in-depth knowledge and handling skills of your weapon of choice and the moral obligation that the issuing authority extracts from you when you applied for the CCW license.
When your go criteria are met, you must draw your concealed carry and if nothing else has changed, it’s not time to talk, it's time to defend yourself with your loud finger. If that reaction isn’t one smooth ‘muscle memory’, you’re dead. I did not say if you draw you must shoot. That’s why I included the “CHANGE” caveat because if the BG turned and ran I would clear the area and then reholster. I would also report the incidence to the local police/county sheriff. This gives them a heads-up on the BG in their area and protects me for going non-concealed. Brandishing, here in South Florida, is prosecuted harshly to control the gangsters and road rage.
There is no fun in concealed carry; it’s a profession that must be executed by professionals. If you do not embrace this school of thought, you have no business being armed. If you don't embrace this, it is my fear that I or my loved ones could become part of your collateral damage.
I need to emphasize the gravity of this carry decision with these two points;
1. Use your head and only draw and fire your weapon to save you or someone’s life. This is the only righteous shooting. Anything else will find you in a cage or box. Long before you put yourself in the ‘shoot’ position, you better have completed all the legal requirements that allow you to be there. In addition you must complete the following personal conditions; Training, understand and accept the moral obligation that the issuing authority extracts from you when you applied for the CCW license, training, the moral mettle to take a life, training, know and keep up on the laws covering carry in the location you are armed (political boundaries and building restrictions), training, at a bare minimum have a gun rights lawyer’s phone number on your cell’s speed dial, training, retain that lawyer if you can afford it and did I mention training?
2. See # 1 or you will get yourself killed!
We are neither a vigilante nor a hired gun, just a survivalist.
cb
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Old 01-04-2009, 05:03 AM   #30
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Lots and lots of valuable information posted in here. I really really appreciate it, guys. I am going to apply for my license to carry, (What are these called, exactly?) attend a training course or two, and practice getting to know my gun.

Again, this first gun isn't going to be used as my CCW. It's simply going to be my plinker to get my mind and body used to firearms.

Back on subject,



I went up to Academy Sporting Goods, and found a pistol that I very well may get within the next couple of weeks, depending on everyone's opinions. I looked at two affordable ones. Both single action Heritage .22 revolvers. One was $170 and only shoots .22LR (from what I understand) and the other costs $231 and shoots both .22LR, and .22 MAG. Is it worth it to pay the extra money for the one that shoots the MAGS?

I'm not sure of the product number of the more expensive gun, but here is a link to the cheaper one. On this website it says that this gun car shoot .22WMR. What's WMR stand for?

Link:
https://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/87905

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