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Old 02-09-2012, 06:26 PM   #21
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Weapon typically carries with it a negative connotation.

To me, a weapon is something you attack someone with. It can be anything, a sword, gun, knife, car, a big stick you found in the woods. I don't attack people with my firearms, so I typically refrain from calling them weapons.

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FCross, you are 1/4" MOA at 100 yards (e.g., right on target) regarding the point I was making about use of the term "firearm" rather than "weapon".

Few will ever use their "firearm" as a "weapon." But many will use their "firearm" for many enjoyable things, like hunting and target shooting. So why call everything that goes bang a "weapon" when the term "firearm" is usually more appropriate?
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Old 02-09-2012, 08:09 PM   #22
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Forgive me if I'm stepping anyone's toes, but a Kel-Tec is a terrible suggestion. I like Kel-Tec and in fact own a pair of them. I carry my PF9 daily and it's never let me down. But their pistols are exclusively built around an ultra-light simple carry concept...they'd never be a reasonable choice for a range/HD gun. Minimalist ergos, sucky triggers, accuracy can be difficult, limited capacity, and not exactly built like tanks.

For $200 or less, Hi-Point is probably the way to go. It's a cheap gun and one ugly SOB, but has a strong performance record relative to the cost.

For the best results in a good value purchase, you want to get yourself into the $300-500 tier. Almost everything in that range is a solid gun, though I'd personally steer clear of Taurus. 9mm or 40sw probably offer the best bang for your budget when it comes to range/defense calibers.
Didn't think he or his significant other would like holding a drill if they needed to shoot, that's how they feel to me. Another consideration would be the high muzzle velocity of a Kel-Tec to a High Point in which the Kel-Tec is better. But the bigger issue for me personally are the FTE and FTF problems with Hi-Points and their recommended break in period of 200 rounds. The company recommends you replace the firing pin which they will do for free etc. If you don't get to that break in point and you need it in a SD situation what happens then? Hi-Points do have a lifetime warranty which is because it is needed. I just wouldn't want my one and only gun in the shop all the time. Nonetheless it is just an opinion from my experiences Kel-Tecs have been better then High Points. Of course I haven't messed with a HP in 10 years so maybe they have gotten better.
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Old 02-09-2012, 10:35 PM   #23
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Another consideration would be the high muzzle velocity of a Kel-Tec to a High Point in which the Kel-Tec is better.
What?

-Fred
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Old 02-09-2012, 11:51 PM   #24
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Didn't think he or his significant other would like holding a drill if they needed to shoot, that's how they feel to me. Another consideration would be the high muzzle velocity of a Kel-Tec to a High Point in which the Kel-Tec is better.
I don't understand the muzzle velocity point...the gun's barrel length is the only the factor (apart from ammunition) that dictates velocity. Most Hi-Points will have longer barrels than most Kel-Tecs in the same caliber, therefore the Hi-Point should generally fire the same ammunition faster.

I too would rather own a KT and have never considered buying a HP. Kel Tec makes good little guns for their designed use. But for the OP's intended use, a Kel Tec falls flat on its face. It'd be like buying a Fiat to haul a horse trailer.

He'd be much better off with a SW Sigma or Ruger P95 at a similar price.
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Old 02-10-2012, 01:48 AM   #25
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I don't understand the muzzle velocity point...the gun's barrel length is the only the factor (apart from ammunition) that dictates velocity. Most Hi-Points will have longer barrels than most Kel-Tecs in the same caliber, therefore the Hi-Point should generally fire the same ammunition faster.

I too would rather own a KT and have never considered buying a HP. Kel Tec makes good little guns for their designed use. But for the OP's intended use, a Kel Tec falls flat on its face. It'd be like buying a Fiat to haul a horse trailer.

He'd be much better off with a SW Sigma or Ruger P95 at a similar price.
Personally for me and I'm sure a lot of others if I'm thinking strictly home defense I would rather have a 12 GA. Agree on the Sigma and P95, the P95 was actually the very first pistol I bought. On the velocity thing yeah my bad I got my forum threads crossed. I was at work rushing my response and not paying attention (didn't want the boss to see either..lol). Funny thing is while I was strolling around Gander Mountain this evening they had two used HPs for 250 and 275. Guess they don't know how much a new one costs?
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Old 02-10-2012, 04:10 AM   #26
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Didn't think he or his significant other would like holding a drill if they needed to shoot, that's how they feel to me. Another consideration would be the high muzzle velocity of a Kel-Tec to a High Point in which the Kel-Tec is better. But the bigger issue for me personally are the FTE and FTF problems with Hi-Points and their recommended break in period of 200 rounds.
First: I agree that a kel tec is a lousy range gun unless you are a veteran pistol shooter ( I have a pf9 for carry)

Second: The rifling on the kel tec pf9 has baffled most people that reviewed it. Its crazy efficient for the length.

Third: Any semi-auto firearm needs to be broken in, especially when you're talking budget arms and 200 rounds is not unreasonable. To be efficient, accurate and intuitive, more than 1000 rounds should be a benchmark. The kel tec I have, failed to lock the slide on last round till I hit 50 rounds, no problems since. Its a machine, and the less money you spend the more it may need "worked in"
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Old 02-10-2012, 12:20 PM   #27
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For a gun that is easy on the bank account but reliable and accurate, the Stoeger 8000 "Cougar" in 9mm, or Stoeger 8040 Cougar in .40 S&W are worth looking at. 3.62" barrel, overall length 7". The 9mm has 14+1 capacity, the .40 has 11+1. They use a rotating barrel lockup, which is great for accuracy, instead of the Browning tilt-barrel type. Price about $400. They are identical to the original Beretta models with the same name, but they are made in Turkey in a factory that used to be owned by Beretta. When Beretta was making them the price was more than double the Stoeger price.

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Old 02-10-2012, 12:37 PM   #28
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For a gun that is easy on the bank account but reliable and accurate, the Stoeger 8000 "Cougar" in 9mm, or Stoeger 8040 Cougar in .40 S&W are worth looking at. 3.62" barrel, overall length 7". The 9mm has 14+1 capacity, the .40 has 11+1. They use a rotating barrel lockup, which is great for accuracy, instead of the Browning tilt-barrel type. Price about $400. They are identical to the original Beretta models with the same name, but they are made in Turkey in a factory that used to be owned by Beretta. When Beretta was making them the price was more than double the Stoeger price.
Looks like a woman's gun.
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Old 02-10-2012, 01:25 PM   #29
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Looks like a woman's gun.
It was designed for police use. What is there about it that looks like a woman's gun?
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Old 02-10-2012, 02:15 PM   #30
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It was designed for police use. What is there about it that looks like a woman's gun?
Here is a link to a description: http://www.stoegerindustries.com/firearms/stoeger-cougar.php
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