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Old 08-24-2013, 09:11 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JW357

Again, to each his own. I'm not trying to discredit your experiences or training.

I'm also not a cop, and most people aren't. In my belief, most defense situations a regular citizen are going to find themselves in, the trigger probably won't even be pulled. if it is, statistics show that the vast majority of time 1-3 shots is more than enough to "stop the threat," which, given today's legal-minded society, is what the goal is.

My goal is to not kill anyone (including the aggressor) while still preserving my own life and those close to me. In that regard, if I do have to pull the trigger, and I miss, with a six shot revolver I have less chances of killing an innocent person who isn't involved in the situation.

Like I said, to each his own and I won't judge someone because they don't agree with me in terms of CCW. The entire process is intensely personal.

I pray that neither you nor I (nor anyone else) will have to use our weapon in self-defense during our life times. I also pray that should the need arise, we hit the target in the first shot and subsequent shots are not necessary.
I was always taught if the situation is bad enough for you to pull the trigger, aim to kill, because most likely if you aim just to wound your giving the BG the opportunity to aim and kill you!! Obviously if a wound shot is delivered and it stops the threat, than follow up shots to kill can be avoided!! Of course there are exceptions to any situation! But aim to Kill or be killed was always what I was taught!! Now I do think that pulling your gun does not always mean pulling the trigger, but if you force me to pull the trigger your dead or at least that's my intent with the first shot!! Exceptions pending!!
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Old 08-24-2013, 09:21 PM   #52
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Yes and statistics also show that you are very unlikely to ever need to use your firearm for defence. But that doesint stop you carrying one. So you carry a firearm just in case but not extra ammo just in case strange logic.
Actually right now I don't carry, because I live in Kalifornia and don't have a permit here.

And actually the logic seems perfectly sound to me. Yes, statistically I probably won't ever have to use a gun in defense. If I do, presenting the firearm will probably be enough, without having to pull the trigger. If I do have to pull the trigger, again statistics show that 1-3 shots ends the threat, most of the time.

The whole situation is one "if" leading to another "if" with another "if" tacked on for good measure.

And I never said I wouldn't carry extra ammo. If I do carry a revolver someday, I've already decided I will have a spring-loaded speed loader on my belt, "just in case." Is carrying the speed loader inconsistent logic, given my belief that I stated earlier? Well no, because I can see myself leaving my house with just the revolver and feeling perfectly content. Regardless of if I have 6 or 12 rounds of .357 Magnum, or 31 of 9mm, I will try to stop the threat on the very first shot. I know, I know, adrenaline and all that. I accept that. That doesn't mean I will accept misses. The first shot will count to the best of my ability, as will the second, if it's needed.

At the end of the day, if I could have a small revolver chambered in .357 Magnum that holds 20 rounds, I would carry it. But the fact is that doesn't exist. The only reason I picked the 6 rounds of .357 Magnum (per the OP's question) is because I personally lean towards carrying a revolver rather than a semi-auto (even though I currently own a S&W M&P9c and would carry it if I needed to) and six rounds is generally the limit on a revolver. I don't have anything against higher capacity pistols, but I would just personally feel more comfortable with a wheel gun. I do also believe that higher capacity equals more opportunities to injure an innocent person (not talking about the bad guy), but that's where training and shot placement come into play. But the risk of hitting innocents isn't why I would carry a revolver.

Anyway, I digress. I'm starting to get long-winded. I'll continue to answer questions if you all have them, but I won't be arguing anymore.
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Old 08-24-2013, 09:23 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mahall

I was always taught if the situation is bad enough for you to pull the trigger, aim to kill, because most likely if you aim just to wound your giving the BG the opportunity to aim and kill you!! Obviously if a wound shot is delivered and it stops the threat, than follow up shots to kill can be avoided!! Of course there are exceptions to any situation! But aim to Kill or be killed was always what I was taught!! Now I do think that pulling your gun does not always mean pulling the trigger, but if you force me to pull the trigger your dead or at least that's my intent with the first shot!! Exceptions pending!!
I agree. But my point was that if the bad guy doesn't die, but he isn't coming after me anymore, then the situation is de-escalated and the threat is over.
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Old 08-24-2013, 09:34 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JW357

Actually right now I don't carry, because I live in Kalifornia and don't have a permit here.

And actually the logic seems perfectly sound to me. Yes, statistically I probably won't ever have to use a gun in defense. If I do, presenting the firearm will probably be enough, without having to pull the trigger. If I do have to pull the trigger, again statistics show that 1-3 shots ends the threat, most of the time.

The whole situation is one "if" leading to another "if" with another "if" tacked on for good measure.

And I never said I wouldn't carry extra ammo. If I do carry a revolver someday, I've already decided I will have a spring-loaded speed loader on my belt, "just in case." Is carrying the speed loader inconsistent logic, given my belief that I stated earlier? Well no, because I can see myself leaving my house with just the revolver and feeling perfectly content. Regardless of if I have 6 or 12 rounds of .357 Magnum, or 31 of 9mm, I will try to stop the threat on the very first shot. I know, I know, adrenaline and all that. I accept that. That doesn't mean I will accept misses. The first shot will count to the best of my ability, as will the second, if it's needed.

At the end of the day, if I could have a small revolver chambered in .357 Magnum that holds 20 rounds, I would carry it. But the fact is that doesn't exist. The only reason I picked the 6 rounds of .357 Magnum (per the OP's question) is because I personally lean towards carrying a revolver rather than a semi-auto (even though I currently own a S&W M&P9c and would carry it if I needed to) and six rounds is generally the limit on a revolver. I don't have anything against higher capacity pistols, but I would just personally feel more comfortable with a wheel gun. I do also believe that higher capacity equals more opportunities to injure an innocent person (not talking about the bad guy), but that's where training and shot placement come into play. But the risk of hitting innocents isn't why I would carry a revolver.

Anyway, I digress. I'm starting to get long-winded. I'll continue to answer questions if you all have them, but I won't be arguing anymore.
I believe and carry high capacity because most likely your enemy will probably have something in high capacity!! I feel that carrying a revolver would likely put you in a disadvantage in most cases!! And 15 vs 6 always helps when going up against multiple BG's! I love wheel guns but High capacity has to many advantages to ignore these days!!
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Old 08-24-2013, 09:39 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JW357

I agree. But my point was that if the bad guy doesn't die, but he isn't coming after me anymore, then the situation is de-escalated and the threat is over.
The problem is the guy hopped up on meth or bath salts who doesn't know he's been hit. You have to keep pumping rounds in him until his body shuts down. I can think of multiple instances where this has happened to law enforcement. It's only a matter of time before it happens to someone with a CCP. Even a femoral bleed will not cause a blackout for 4-6 seconds. That's still plenty of time for the guy to send a few more rounds your way. Anything less than that or a CNS shot can take a full 60 seconds and sometimes longer.

Edit: And I didn't see this as an argument, but a productive discussion on what it takes to stop a threat.
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Old 08-24-2013, 09:48 PM   #56
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Quote:
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The problem is the guy hopped up on meth or bath salts who doesn't know he's been hit. You have to keep pumping rounds in him until his body shuts down. I can think of multiple instances where this has happened to law enforcement. It's only a matter of time before it happens to someone with a CCP. Even a femoral bleed will not cause a blackout for 4-6 seconds. That's still plenty of time for the guy to send a few more rounds your way. Anything less than that or a CNS shot can take a full 60 seconds and sometimes longer.

Edit: And I didn't see this as an argument, but a productive discussion on what it takes to stop a threat.
Of course that's a very viable scenario of when capacity might be the deciding factor. I hope I am never in a position when I am dealing with people hopped up on bath salts, and of course I won't know it going into the situation. But generally I keep to myself (with my family) and avoid situations where encountering someone like that is more likely.

For what its worth, the closest method to guaranteeing a stop to the threat is a dome shot.
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Old 08-24-2013, 09:50 PM   #57
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The police and army carry high-cap handguns and they do it for a reason. The whole history of firearms development is to increase cap of the firearm and the rate of fire. So to me hi-cap has the advantage a reload is to be avoided if possible during a gunfight. People have being shot numerous times with a handgun without stopping them shooting back. I wouldn't count on one or two shots stopping a determined attacker

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Old 08-24-2013, 09:57 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by manta
The police and army carry high-cap handguns and they do it for a reason. The whole history of firearms development is to increase cap of the firearm and the rate of fire. So to me hi-cap has the advantage a reload is to be avoided if possible during a gunfight. People have being shot numerous times with a handgun without stopping the shooting back.
Police and military situations aren't an accurate reflection of what a CCW holder might encounter. They are in situations where an attack is imminent, or they are more likely to be in a prolonged firefight. A civilian's self defense situation is usually not a firefight. And if it turns into one, something has gone horribly wrong.

Military also are not allowed, as per the Geneva Conventions, to use hollow points. They use FMJ ammo, which doesn't have the stopping power of HPs. They NEED more rounds to get the same effect. Also, at least in Iraq, Marines and Soldiers often encountered terrorists who were hopped up on Khat or other drugs, which IMO most civilians aren't likely to be in similar situations.

Basing what a civilian should do off of what the military does, is IMO, never an apples to apples comparison. Law Enforcement to civilian is closer, as LEOs are usually allowed to carry HP ammo and civilians are more likely to encounter the same scumbags as LEOs. But I still feel the LEO/Civilian comparison is not quite accurate.
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Old 08-24-2013, 10:43 PM   #59
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I'm going to go with 45ACP.

How many people do you know that are introduced to you:

"Mike, I'd like you to meet John. In June of 19xx he took two

45 rounds to the chest, and survived.
"

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Old 08-24-2013, 10:51 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by therewolf
I'm going to go with 45ACP.

How many people do you know that are introduced to you:

"Mike, I'd like you to meet John. In June of 19xx he took two

45 rounds to the chest, and survived.
I don't know of any that has taken multiple rounds to the chest and survived and that covers 9mm! I'm sure it's happened many times though and that covers 45!! 45 is a close second of the 3 in my opinion!! Availability and smaller capacity with 45 keeps me on the 9mm side!! But both would serve well!!
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