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Old 08-25-2013, 06:40 PM   #101
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Quote:
This also tells us that the differences between the effectiveness of certain rounds is very small in most cases.
Interesting don't get me wrong I have a .45 its one of my favourite handguns, but I think some of the claims made about the calibre are exaggerated.

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Old 08-25-2013, 06:41 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by texaswoodworker

The 99% was more of a figure of speech, but it does hold some truth.

This is from another forum. It's FBI statistics. I don't have a link to the original source, but if you find it, please share.

NOTE: the percentage in BOLD is the one shot kill ratio.

Add in the people who were taken out of the fight (not necessarily killed) by a few rounds and you have a percentage that is probably in the mid to high 90s.

This also tells us that the differences between the effectiveness of certain rounds is very small in most cases.
Only thing that shocks me is the 9mm and 45 are virtually even!! And the standard 9mm mag holds considerably more rounds!! Hmmm which one am I going to choose!! As figured the 357 stands alone!! They ever figure how to double stack 10 or more 357 mag rounds for a semi- auto pistol!! I would carry nothing else!! I bet the 9mm, 45 comparison cuts deep in all those that worship that caliber!! This proves my point, if you have virtually the same effectiveness why not carry the bigger capacity!! Doesn't take rocket science to figure common math!! Just saying!!
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Old 08-25-2013, 06:50 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manta View Post
Interesting don't get me wrong I have a .45 its one of my favourite handguns, but I think some of the claims made about the calibre are exaggerated. Mine below capacity with it isn't a problem.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mahall View Post
Only thing that shocks me is the 9mm and 45 are virtually even!! And the standard 9mm mag holds considerably more rounds!! Hmmm which one am I going to choose!! As figured the 357 stands alone!! They ever figure how to double stack 10 or more 357 mag rounds for a semi- auto pistol!! I would carry nothing else!! I bet the 9mm, 45 comparison cuts deep in all those that worship that caliber!! This proves my point, if you have virtually the same effectiveness why not carry the bigger capacity!! Doesn't take rocket science to figure common math!! Just saying!!
Your overlooking something on the 45. The FBI used 185 gr rounds. The one round kill ratio would have probably been a little higher if they had used 200 or 230 gr rounds.

If anything, those stats KILL the capacity argument. Most of those rounds killed over 90% of the time with just one round.

As I said before, 8 rounds of 230 gr 45 ACP, with an extra mag just in case is plenty for me.
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Old 08-25-2013, 06:54 PM   #104
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Sorry guys, I know I said I was going to bow out, and I am shortly. But there's something I hadn't thought about, that I realized hadn't been said here. I don't think it will change anyone's minds but I feel it is important to know about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeltaF

Theres definitely a lot of luck or skill involved to hit a 1/2 inch cord strung up the center of a persons body in a firefight. Or even that 5 inch brain pan shot for that matter.

And those are the only 2 guaranteed "1 stop drops" with a pistol.
I apologize, but this isn't accurate. As a Marine, we are taught and trained in "failure to stop" drills. Those drills being when two shots to the chest doesn't bring the bad guy down, what do we do next?

There are two areas that we are trained to shoot at, to stop the threat, in the event two to the chest doesn't do the trick. The first we call the "T Box." It is the area from the farthest point of one eye across to the same point on the other eye, and directly between the eyes to the bottom of the nose. That area forms a "T" shape and will kill the opponent, because it will cut activity to the central nervous system.

The other point we are trained to shoot at is one that hasn't been mentioned. It is the pelvis. The reasoning for this is simple. If the pelvis shatters from a gunshot, the weight of that person's body will be unsupported by his lower body, and he will come crashing down on top of himself. He may still be able to hold a weapon, in which case you can react accordingly, but he definitely won't be able to advance towards you anymore.

I did a quick Google search and the below target is the closest I could find to the ones we train with in CQB.

image-4032439542.jpg

Notice how much larger the pelvis is than the T Box. If you hit a man or woman in the pelvis, his body will be unsupported and the threat will be effectively ended. If he is still able to fire at you from the ground while in excruciating pain, then put one more in his head for good measure.
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Old 08-25-2013, 07:01 PM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by texaswoodworker

Your overlooking something on the 45. The FBI used 185 gr rounds. The one round kill ratio would have probably been a little higher if they had used 200 or 230 gr rounds.

If anything, those stats KILL the capacity argument. Most of those rounds killed over 90% of the time with just one round.

As I said before, 8 rounds of 230 gr 45 ACP, with an extra mag just in case is plenty for me.
As someone said, better to have to many and not need them!! Then not enough and need them!! My G26 that I often carry only holds 10+1 so I can't fault a man to carry his favorite caliber!! If I would go below 10, I just soon take my chances with a 357 mag revolver, the perfect SD caliber in my opinion!!
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Old 08-25-2013, 07:36 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by mahall View Post
As someone said, better to have to many and not need them!! Then not enough and need them!! My G26 that I often carry only holds 10+1 so I can't fault a man to carry his favorite caliber!! If I would go below 10, I just soon take my chances with a 357 mag revolver, the perfect SD caliber in my opinion!!
Which is one of the reason I will have an extra mag.

Your not going to convince me that high capacity is better. Like many things, it's all personal preference. No matter how much you try to rationalize it, that's what it comes down to.

I do not feel under gunned with 8 in the gun and a mag on standby, so that's what I will carry.

Last edited by texaswoodworker; 08-25-2013 at 07:41 PM.
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Old 08-25-2013, 07:41 PM   #107
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This thread has gone on for 11 pages. There are numerous arguments from both sides on this subject. If one side hasn't convinced the other yet, they are not going to convince them. This thread is just going around in circles, so I see no point in continuing this debate. As said earlier, this is just like the caliber debates and the 1911 vs GLOCK debates. It will all come down to personal preference, and neither side will ever come up with an arguments that makes the other side admit defeat.

So, I'm bowing out too.

LONG LIVE THE 8 ROUND, 45 ACP 1911!!!!

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Old 08-25-2013, 09:15 PM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JW357
Sorry guys, I know I said I was going to bow out, and I am shortly. But there's something I hadn't thought about, that I realized hadn't been said here. I don't think it will change anyone's minds but I feel it is important to know about.

I apologize, but this isn't accurate. As a Marine, we are taught and trained in "failure to stop" drills. Those drills being when two shots to the chest doesn't bring the bad guy down, what do we do next?

There are two areas that we are trained to shoot at, to stop the threat, in the event two to the chest doesn't do the trick. The first we call the "T Box." It is the area from the farthest point of one eye across to the same point on the other eye, and directly between the eyes to the bottom of the nose. That area forms a "T" shape and will kill the opponent, because it will cut activity to the central nervous system.

The other point we are trained to shoot at is one that hasn't been mentioned. It is the pelvis. The reasoning for this is simple. If the pelvis shatters from a gunshot, the weight of that person's body will be unsupported by his lower body, and he will come crashing down on top of himself. He may still be able to hold a weapon, in which case you can react accordingly, but he definitely won't be able to advance towards you anymore.

I did a quick Google search and the below target is the closest I could find to the ones we train with in CQB.

Notice how much larger the pelvis is than the T Box. If you hit a man or woman in the pelvis, his body will be unsupported and the threat will be effectively ended. If he is still able to fire at you from the ground while in excruciating pain, then put one more in his head for good measure.
We had similar training back 5-10 years ago. We still practice sighted pairs and 2 chest 1 head+movement. Newer training inside of 7 yards however focuses on overwhelming the body to stop a threat that is in close proximity. It involves a large number of rounds being placed into the threat in a controlled manner while moving away from the threat and towards cover. We were told that the overwhelming majority of shootings (and LOD deaths) to officers occur in these circumstances, rather than at more comfortable distances where you have an extra half second to see if your target drops. This is much more likely to be the case with a CCP shooter as well. We are now taught to continue firing until the subject drops and/or ceases to be a threat even at longer ranges.

Just because a shot kills a person after the smoke clears doesn't automatically mean it stops them from being a threat on impact. Absent a CNS shot people take time to die and can inflict damage until they black out if that is what they choose to do.

Also, expert medical opinion is that pelvic shots are not very effective due to the large bone structure and the unique positions of veins and arteries in that area. I will link to the article when I have time later. If that's my shot ill take it. But center mass or brain pan is way better.
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Old 08-25-2013, 11:36 PM   #109
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I will stick to my Sig 226 with 12 rounds of 125gr Gold Dot and my S&W 357Mag 340PD as backup

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Old 08-25-2013, 11:54 PM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manta View Post
I was replying to the below post that implies that a hit from a .45 will be fatal.
Let's try that "read, AND think" thing, shall we?

You completely missed my points, which were that generally

you don't survive a couple 45 hits to the body. NOT large club.

NOT THAT EVERY SINGLE HIT FROM A 45 is FATAL, get it?

The other point being that being mortally attacked is rare, and

even rarer still does someone go beserk when they are ventilated.

YES, IT HAPPENS, but generally once somebody has a hole in

their body, they start seeking medical attention. Criminals, being

selfish, and rather cowardly, want to live, many times are terrified of death.

But you can rest easy, sir. You proved me wrong, for the weekend.

Last edited by therewolf; 08-25-2013 at 11:56 PM.
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