Best caliber for stopping power - Page 2
Firearm & Gun Forum - FireArmsTalk.com > Handguns > Semi-Auto Handguns > Best caliber for stopping power

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-15-2011, 09:33 PM   #11
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Marthor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: The Beach, USA
Posts: 447
Liked 39 Times on 32 Posts

Default

Although all those shots in the picture would be equally effective through the heart or brain, from a physics standpoint on stopping power...

Force = Mass X Velocity

9mm
124 grain X 1181 f/2 = 146,320 foot-grains/second

45 ACP
230 grain X 875 f/s = 201,250 foot-grains/second

10mm
180 grain X 1319 f/s = 237,420 foot-grains/second

FORCE isn't evident in the picture though.
The 9mm is only 72% the force of that 45 ACP load
The 9mm is only 61% the force of that 10mm load

Another thing to realize is how many parts of your body are 12" deep. My chest is about 10" deep front to back. Then, there's bone too. The smaller & faster round like the 357 will be more likely to penetrate out the back and a lot of force would be wasted in the wall behind the bad guy. The bigger and slower round will hit harder and be best for man stopping. Since these were all JHP expanding it turned them all into bigger rounds and made the results look more similar. FMJ ball ammo would show more pictoral difference in depth travelled.

My vote is 45 ACP as "best" man-stopper. That 10mm is overkill beyond the optimal which makes it not best.

__________________
Marthor's Gun Page ...on Facebook
SHOTGUNS:
. Remington 870 Express 12g
. Mossberg 500 12g
. Stoeger Coach 12g
RIFLES:
. Remington 700 300 WinMag
. Bushmaster M-4 223
. Ruger Mini-14 223
. Ruger 10/22 22LR (x2)
. Rossi 1892 Lever 357
HANDGUNS:
. Remington R1 & R1S 1911 45 ACP (x2)
. Springfield Armory XDm 45 ACP
. Beretta Px4 Storm 45 ACP
. Beretta 92FS 9mm (x2)
. Ruger Vaquero 357 (x2)
. Ruger LCR 357
. Ruger LCP 380
. Ruger 22/45 22LR
. Walther P22 22LR
Marthor is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 09-16-2011, 01:02 AM   #12
Supporting Member
FTF_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
eborden1122's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Birthplace of Elvis
Posts: 452
Liked 20 Times on 18 Posts
Likes Given: 7

Default

I commend your decision to join a law enforcement agency. If you know what police dept you are going to join they usually issue you a firearm. Maybe save up for a backup pistol and see what that dept allows. They usually have rules on what you can carry.

__________________
eborden1122 is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 09-16-2011, 02:15 AM   #13
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 659
Liked 2 Times on 2 Posts

Default

No common has "stopping power." Getting hit with a .45 is literally like getting hit with a highschooler's "fast ball." We've all seen batters get hit by balls, and they don't fall down or fly back or have instant organ failure. I start my teaching job in January--subject: Physics.

Here are some good reads supporting those who say it doesn't really make a difference as long as you put the bullets where they need to go.
An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power

9mm Versus .45 Caliber: Does Size Really Matter? « Joe Barrett's Blog

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf



Here is why the 12" penetration standard exists:

The Gun Zone -- FBI Miami Firefight aftermath

__________________
Lindenwood is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 09-16-2011, 02:51 AM   #14
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Las Vegas, NV,Nevada
Posts: 273
Liked 18 Times on 16 Posts

Default

In on page 2, before it gets to page 15 lol... Whatever you can put on the bad guy the fastest and most accurate. If you're LE narrow it to .40 or .45

__________________

In god we trust, all others we monitor...

Dizzll is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 09-16-2011, 03:26 AM   #15
Devil's Advocate and Provocateur
FTF_MODERATOR.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
TekGreg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Cincinnati,OH
Posts: 1,872
Liked 1337 Times on 701 Posts
Likes Given: 612

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 97cobra View Post
I understand that totally. I've already put money aside to buy myself a pistol and my parents are buying me one also for my 21st since I can use it as an academy gun. If I were to choose a bigger caliber like the 10 I'd probably go with the glock 29 since I could conceal it comfortably everyday and I do feel comfortable shooting it. The large frame guns don't bother me as far as weight because I am 6'1-6'2ish according to my last physical depending on how straight I stand lol and I weigh 245 and go to the gym everyday after work. But I don't like large frames because you wouldn't be able to conceal them all that well. I'm in a t-shirt and shorts most of the year even in snow. I'm not the type to choose based on wanting to have the biggest or baddest gun because I don't see the point.
Sounds like you've already overcome the worst part of it, the peer pressure! Your family sounds like they're very supportive of your decisions as well. Your well informed, your reading the forums, so now it's just a matter of picking a gun you like to carry all the time in a caliber you are comfortable firing and stoke it with a premium defense ammunition - done! Well, except for that pesky practice, practice, practice...
__________________

.
.
“Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem." (I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.). Thomas Jefferson

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

-Edmund Burke, Loosely translated from Thoughts on the Cause of Present Discontents. (1770)

TekGreg is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 09-16-2011, 03:41 AM   #16
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Pittsburgh,Pennsylvania
Posts: 346
Liked 2 Times on 2 Posts

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marthor
Although all those shots in the picture would be equally effective through the heart or brain, from a physics standpoint on stopping power...

Force = Mass X Velocity

9mm
124 grain X 1181 f/2 = 146,320 foot-grains/second

45 ACP
230 grain X 875 f/s = 201,250 foot-grains/second

10mm
180 grain X 1319 f/s = 237,420 foot-grains/second

FORCE isn't evident in the picture though.
The 9mm is only 72% the force of that 45 ACP load
The 9mm is only 61% the force of that 10mm load

Another thing to realize is how many parts of your body are 12" deep. My chest is about 10" deep front to back. Then, there's bone too. The smaller & faster round like the 357 will be more likely to penetrate out the back and a lot of force would be wasted in the wall behind the bad guy. The bigger and slower round will hit harder and be best for man stopping. Since these were all JHP expanding it turned them all into bigger rounds and made the results look more similar. FMJ ball ammo would show more pictoral difference in depth travelled.

My vote is 45 ACP as "best" man-stopper. That 10mm is overkill beyond the optimal which makes it not best.
Everyone always taught me if it ain't broke don't fix it. And obviously the .45 is not broke. Still seems to be one of the most respected rounds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eborden1122
I commend your decision to join a law enforcement agency. If you know what police dept you are going to join they usually issue you a firearm. Maybe save up for a backup pistol and see what that dept allows. They usually have rules on what you can carry.
I thank you. And I'm shooting for state police and they issue the pistols but I want to have something similar or as close to the issued gun as possible so I can be proficient with it before I even go.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindenwood
No common has "stopping power." Getting hit with a .45 is literally like getting hit with a highschooler's "fast ball." We've all seen batters get hit by balls, and they don't fall down or fly back or have instant organ failure. I start my teaching job in January--subject: Physics.

Here are some good reads supporting those who say it doesn't really make a difference as long as you put the bullets where they need to go.
An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power

9mm Versus .45 Caliber: Does Size Really Matter? « Joe Barretts Blog

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

Here is why the 12" penetration standard exists:

The Gun Zone -- FBI Miami Firefight aftermath
Thank you for the excellent information. That helps to understand the ballistics a lot more and makes you see the special effects in movies and how that works lol.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dizzll
In on page 2, before it gets to page 15 lol... Whatever you can put on the bad guy the fastest and most accurate. If you're LE narrow it to .40 or .45
Probably end up with a .45 and a 10mm. With me getting to I can always buy the barrel for .40 which I would end up doing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TekGreg

Sounds like you've already overcome the worst part of it, the peer pressure! Your family sounds like they're very supportive of your decisions as well. Your well informed, your reading the forums, so now it's just a matter of picking a gun you like to carry all the time in a caliber you are comfortable firing and stoke it with a premium defense ammunition - done! Well, except for that pesky practice, practice, practice...
The peer pressure wasn't so bad. They wanted me to get the glock 20 to buy that 50 gi barrel to shoot those but I don't see any point in spending that much on ammo and the slide to not see any ballistic improvements compared to a 10 or 45. Might be a bigger hole but I don't totally understand how the energy works. But practice is my favorite part haha
__________________
97cobra is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 09-16-2011, 04:00 AM   #17
Devil's Advocate and Provocateur
FTF_MODERATOR.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
TekGreg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Cincinnati,OH
Posts: 1,872
Liked 1337 Times on 701 Posts
Likes Given: 612

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay View Post
That's the difference that personal preference makes. I've carried a 1911 of one make or another for over 35 years..... virtually every day. I'm 6' 1" and just over 200 pounds. I have a friend that's larger than I am, and he prefers a Sig 238. There's no right or wrong guns... just lots of personal preferences.
Jay, I personally love the .45 round, but I also favor a double-stack magazine and the only .45 I ever carried was uncomfortable for me (to be fair, did not have a "melt" treatment) and was so large it was the only gun that another person ever spotted under my clothes and caught me carrying. This was many years ago and I now have a Glock 21, but because of that incident, I still wonder if it might be "spotted" so tend to favor smaller guns for CC. However, I do not prejudice anyone else's decision for or against .45 based on my one experience as it is a fantastic round and many love it as a CC or OC choice.
__________________

.
.
“Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem." (I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.). Thomas Jefferson

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

-Edmund Burke, Loosely translated from Thoughts on the Cause of Present Discontents. (1770)

TekGreg is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 09-16-2011, 04:03 AM   #18
Moderator
FTF_MODERATOR.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
JonM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Rochester WI,Rochester WI
Posts: 18,053
Liked 5997 Times on 3138 Posts
Likes Given: 428

Default

weapon proficiency is the least of what being a good police officer involves. if you want to get proficient get yourself a reliable 22lr semi-auto and about 10k rounds and get after it... shooting 22lr has done far more for me in getting the mechanics down than the centerfire shooting i do.

the basic mechanics of firing a handgun accurately is the same regardless of the platform your using.

if you want to be an officer i would concentrate more on physical fitnessthan anything else. getting your energy levels up thru fitness will help your ability to absorb the info presented to you in the le classes.

just my opinion from having gone thru MP school.

__________________

"Gun control: The theory that a woman found dead in an alley, raped and strangled with her panty hose, is somehow morally superior to a woman explaining to police how her attacker got that fatal bullet wound." — L. Neil Smith

The problem with being stupid is you cannot simply decide to stop doing dumb things...

JonM is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 09-16-2011, 04:06 AM   #19
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Marthor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: The Beach, USA
Posts: 447
Liked 39 Times on 32 Posts

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindenwood View Post
Getting hit with a .45 is literally like getting hit with a highschooler's "fast ball." We've all seen batters get hit by balls, and they don't fall down or fly back or have instant organ failure. I start my teaching job in January--subject: Physics.
Me love physics! =)

True that the force of a highschooler fastball is the same force as a 230 grain 45 ACP. I did the calculation myself!

Baseball = 145 grams
70 mph fastball = 102 feet/second
230 grain bullet = 15 grams
45 ACP = 875 feet/second

Do the math and it's approximately the same force. HOWEVER, it's a deceiving analogy. You've all seen a person get hit by a fastball, and duck and prepare for the blow ahead of time, reacting enough to put the blow in a less damaging area of the body and then usually have to walk off the stinger for a while.

It's a deceiving analogy though because the baseball's energy is distributed laterally by the ribcage and/or the greater surface area of a cotton cloth uniform padding. If the 45 hits your rib, it'll break your bone everytime and go right through, not distibuting the energy laterally through your ribcage.

I say a much closer analogy would be a fastball to the gnads is the same force as a 45 auto. That's without a cup of course and will knock any man down. You can complain that the gnads have more nerves, but hardly anything is as painfull as a broken bone. Like we already covered, the 45 will break any bones it hits.

Now, what about a 9mm using the same analogy with a baseball to the gnads. Do all the same calculations. The force of a 9mm comes out closer to a 45 mph underhand pitch softball toss using the same 145 gram baseball. That might not be enough to knock a man down.

Force is a big difference. Like the already previous calculation, the 9mm only has 72% of the force of the 45 auto.
__________________
Marthor's Gun Page ...on Facebook
SHOTGUNS:
. Remington 870 Express 12g
. Mossberg 500 12g
. Stoeger Coach 12g
RIFLES:
. Remington 700 300 WinMag
. Bushmaster M-4 223
. Ruger Mini-14 223
. Ruger 10/22 22LR (x2)
. Rossi 1892 Lever 357
HANDGUNS:
. Remington R1 & R1S 1911 45 ACP (x2)
. Springfield Armory XDm 45 ACP
. Beretta Px4 Storm 45 ACP
. Beretta 92FS 9mm (x2)
. Ruger Vaquero 357 (x2)
. Ruger LCR 357
. Ruger LCP 380
. Ruger 22/45 22LR
. Walther P22 22LR

Last edited by Marthor; 09-16-2011 at 04:29 AM.
Marthor is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 09-16-2011, 04:26 AM   #20
Moderator
FTF_MODERATOR.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
JonM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Rochester WI,Rochester WI
Posts: 18,053
Liked 5997 Times on 3138 Posts
Likes Given: 428

Default

approximate:
frontal area of an average baseball is 63.5 square inches = 3169 foot grains per second

45 acp is .161 square inches = 1,250,000 foot grains per second

using your figures.

thats an enourmous amplification of force. if a baseball thrown is the same as a 45 acp its easy to see why a bullet does so much more damage than a thrown ball. to get the ball to do the same effect damage wise the baseball would have to travel about 394 times faster for the force per square inch to equal a bullet.

in terms of ballistic damage the ball would have to be going a helluva lot faster to equal the damage a 45acp can do.

while the overall force generated is the same the force per square inch is no where near the same. a bullet applies the force generated more efficiently than a baseball even tho they have the exact same energy potential.

but i failed math so im prolly dead wrong

__________________

"Gun control: The theory that a woman found dead in an alley, raped and strangled with her panty hose, is somehow morally superior to a woman explaining to police how her attacker got that fatal bullet wound." — L. Neil Smith

The problem with being stupid is you cannot simply decide to stop doing dumb things...

JonM is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Firearms Forum Replies Last Post
What Would A Lower Decibel Handgun With Stopping Power? ryevick Semi-Auto Handguns 7 08-12-2011 06:32 AM
STOPPING POWER of a .380 ..... LONGHAIR Semi-Auto Handguns 20 07-07-2011 05:34 AM
Shooting the 40-Caliber Hi Power... SACamp Semi-Auto Handguns 8 10-02-2010 09:30 AM
I Need a CC - But I NEED MORE STOPPING POWER!! Dillinger 1911 Forum 27 05-24-2010 12:28 PM