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Old 08-28-2013, 12:09 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by Axxe55

i apologise for that. i went back and reread it and you did say someone else shot it with a 9mm. you should have broken the idiots hand though.

but the comparison is still off. 9mm isn't made for deer hunting. two different outcomes are to be expected. hunting you want to go for a clean one shot kill as quickly as possible. when shooting a BG, you are are only after stopping a threat, not necessarily having to kill them, just stop them.
A 1 shot drop is desirable in both hunting and self defense. The issue at hand is that a handgun round cannot cause the type of tissue damage and hydrostatic shock that a rifle round causes. If possible I would prefer to use either a fragmenting or JHP .556 round or 7.62 round on a BG than any handgun round. The same goes for a deer. It usually takes multiple handgun rounds to cause a human being or an animal's body to STOP functioning IMMEDIATELY.

This is how the caliber/capacity debates kick off.
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Nobody on this thread licked anybody's bodypart.

Nobody said anything.....about Glocks until you posted about your bacon dog who needs dentures.

What did somebody forget to engage their safety and shoot the dogs front teeth out? Or are we blaming that on the Glock shooters?

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Old 08-28-2013, 12:21 AM   #42
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A 1 shot drop is desirable in both hunting and self defense. The issue at hand is that a handgun round cannot cause the type of tissue damage and anaphylactic shock that a rifle round causes. If possible I would prefer to use either a fragmenting or JHP .556 round or 7.62 round on a BG than any handgun round. The same goes for a deer.
but most pistol rounds are not usually one shot stoppers. possible, but not likely. rapid blood loss or shutting down the CNS is what stops someone when shot.

surviving is the goal when having to use a firearm for SD purposes. so the objective is to stop the threat, and whether that's one shot or ten.

i think most of can agree that a pistol is a compromise at best, but it's hard to conceal carry a rifle.
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Old 08-28-2013, 12:27 AM   #43
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I haven't tried Hornady " Critical Defense" in 9 mm.
My two neighbors, who are one separate police forces ( both Sargeants) like Hornady; and wish that their Departments, would switch over , from Winchester issued ammo.

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Old 08-28-2013, 12:41 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Axxe55

but most pistol rounds are not usually one shot stoppers. possible, but not likely. rapid blood loss or shutting down the CNS is what stops someone when shot.

surviving is the goal when having to use a firearm for SD purposes. so the objective is to stop the threat, and whether that's one shot or ten.

i think most of can agree that a pistol is a compromise at best, but it's hard to conceal carry a rifle.
Right. But, if there were a pistol round that could duplicate the hydrostatic shock and tissue damage of say a fragmenting M193 round tearing through the body of a BG, at 3000fps that's what we would all want to carry. The ultimate goal is to shock the body into involuntarily ceasing everything it's doing. Death is usually just a side effect of that.
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Nobody on this thread licked anybody's bodypart.

Nobody said anything.....about Glocks until you posted about your bacon dog who needs dentures.

What did somebody forget to engage their safety and shoot the dogs front teeth out? Or are we blaming that on the Glock shooters?

"Gaston, the Doggy dentist's best friend."
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Old 08-28-2013, 12:44 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by ratpacker
I haven't tried Hornady " Critical Defense" in 9 mm.
My two neighbors, who are one separate police forces ( both Sargeants) like Hornady; and wish that their Departments, would switch over , from Winchester issued ammo.
Now that you mention it, I did hear some talk on the range of 9mm Winchester JHP having expansion issues with heavy clothing a while back. We're issued Federal now. I wonder if that's why...
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Nobody on this thread licked anybody's bodypart.

Nobody said anything.....about Glocks until you posted about your bacon dog who needs dentures.

What did somebody forget to engage their safety and shoot the dogs front teeth out? Or are we blaming that on the Glock shooters?

"Gaston, the Doggy dentist's best friend."
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Old 08-28-2013, 04:59 PM   #46
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Right. But, if there were a pistol round that could duplicate the hydrostatic shock and tissue damage of say a fragmenting M193 round tearing through the body of a BG, at 3000fps that's what we would all want to carry. The ultimate goal is to shock the body into involuntarily ceasing everything it's doing. Death is usually just a side effect of that.
I like the way you think. I carry a FN 5.7. Its a pistol that shoots a rifle round. A 5.56 junior if you will. Plus I like this video. You can shoot them in the gut and the round could potentially travel through their torso and come out their neck or end up in their head. 20 rounds in the standard mag or 30 in the extended.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bE2_qO_KsH8#t=49

forumrunner_20130828_125908.jpg



forumrunner_20130828_125935.jpg

And this one for a hotter load at 2300 fps

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vA6wf41ze9U#t=20
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Old 08-28-2013, 06:05 PM   #47
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The 5.7mm is not a rifle round. It was designed as a replacement for 9x19mm (9mm Luger). While it is a very "hot" round and can penetrate body armor there is a lot of controversy around it's actual effectiveness.

Originally the 5.7mm was designed specifically for the FN P90, itself a dedicated "Personal Defense Weapon". While the PDW concept has been around for awhile the FN P90 is one of the few weapons I am aware of that was designed specifically for that purpose. It is essentially a submachinegun though.

The FN Five-Seven came later.

While the 5.7mm was designed to be in all ways superior to the 9mm, it was never intended to be used as a rifle round and was always intended for relatively short-range use.

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Old 08-28-2013, 06:37 PM   #48
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The 5.7mm is not a rifle round. It was designed as a replacement for 9x19mm (9mm Luger). While it is a very "hot" round and can penetrate body armor there is a lot of controversy around it's actual effectiveness.

Originally the 5.7mm was designed specifically for the FN P90, itself a dedicated "Personal Defense Weapon". While the PDW concept has been around for awhile the FN P90 is one of the few weapons I am aware of that was designed specifically for that purpose. It is essentially a submachinegun though.

The FN Five-Seven came later.

While the 5.7mm was designed to be in all ways superior to the 9mm, it was never intended to be used as a rifle round and was always intended for relatively short-range use.
So the P90 is not a rifle? And you say the P90 came first and then the FiveseveN? So if the P90 is a rifle does that not make the 5.7X28 cartridge a rifle cartridge?
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Old 08-28-2013, 06:43 PM   #49
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The P90 is essentially a submachinegun and was intended to work at that range.

Effective range for the P90 is about 220 meters. Versus an M16 which is somewhere over 500 meters.

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Old 08-28-2013, 07:06 PM   #50
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P90 and PS90 are just classified as PDW's personal defense weapons but thats what every weapon I own is.

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