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Old 08-26-2013, 08:52 PM   #31
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E ∝ mv²

In terms of physics, mass and velocity matter. There is a diminishing return on powder charge in that when you add 10% more powder, you get less than 10% more velocity. In addition, the only way for all of the energy in a bullet to be expended is for it to not shoot through the object...if it does, it carries some of the energy with it.

The best bullet, is one that is fast enough to create bullet expansion, thus transferring kinetic energy to the target, while maintaining the form/mass of the original bullet yet not exit. There is a minimum velocity required to get bullet expansion, but I don't remember what it is.

Complicated for sure and I really don't know or have the ability to determine for myself which is best...this I know: I want the bullet to be fast enough to expand and transfer energy without passing through the target/walls/unintended objects. This is the basis for all of the self defense loads and I would likely trust any of the major ammo mfgs as they are the ones doing the testing.
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Old 08-26-2013, 09:08 PM   #32
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Quote:
The best bullet, is one that is fast enough to create bullet expansion, thus transferring kinetic energy to the target, while maintaining the form/mass of the original bullet yet not exit. There is a minimum velocity required to get bullet expansion, but I don't remember what it is.
As I said it is virtually impossible to design a bullet to do that. People come in all different shapes and sizes a bullet that won't go through a fat person could go through a thin person. Most handgun ammo is not traveling at enough velocity for energy transfer to make a big difference for that you need a rifle.
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Old 08-26-2013, 09:12 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by John_Deer View Post
I don't shoot hollow points in any of my 9mm. I don't feel that the 9mm has enough penetration to make the most of a hollow point. Yes, I have read all the gun magazines and their expert opinion. I have seen a man shoot a deer with a 9mm right in the shoulder that I had to chase down and finish off with a rifle. If a 9mm hollow point won't put a 140 lb doe down I am not betting my life on it. Men get much larger than 140 lb.
9mm JHP ammo wasn't made for deer hunting. you shot it in the shoulder and expected a one shot, drop in it's tracks kill?

wow, just wow.
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Old 08-26-2013, 10:29 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by JW357

Just curious, what'd you come across that makes you distrust Critical Duty or Defense?
It will shoot and runs smooth in most guns but it is just a pretty packaged hyped up target ammo as far as I have seen. There are a lot of videos testing this ammo. Look at all you can find. If you are comfortable carrying what appears to be a marginal performing ammo then that is what you should carry. Use what you have faith in. In all my carry guns I want ammo like LE use and that is ammo that is not watered down for low recoil and cheap prices. The Federal HST and Ranger T along with Gold Dots and Golden Sabers is the stuff that gives me a warm fuzzy feeling. There are other good choices too like Underwood and Corbon or Buffalo Bore. I think most all ammo has been watered down from where it used to be. Find a LEO that will let you shoot just one round of their duty ammo and you will see what I am talking about. Even if the box does not say +P the stuff is hot.
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Old 08-27-2013, 03:53 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John_Deer
I don't shoot hollow points in any of my 9mm. I don't feel that the 9mm has enough penetration to make the most of a hollow point. Yes, I have read all the gun magazines and their expert opinion. I have seen a man shoot a deer with a 9mm right in the shoulder that I had to chase down and finish off with a rifle. If a 9mm hollow point won't put a 140 lb doe down I am not betting my life on it. Men get much larger than 140 lb.
.........wow.

Expecting any handgun round to perform like a rifle round on any target is expecting way too much. The fact that he was able to chase it down says the 9mm must have done a lot of damage unless there were some pretty unique circumstances going on.

http://youtu.be/jexyDDA3TBU 9mm handgun in gelatin

http://youtu.be/9gp8xJZO0c4 7mm rifle in gelatin

Nuff said.
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Old 08-27-2013, 05:11 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by John_Deer View Post
I don't shoot hollow points in any of my 9mm. I don't feel that the 9mm has enough penetration to make the most of a hollow point. Yes, I have read all the gun magazines and their expert opinion. I have seen a man shoot a deer with a 9mm right in the shoulder that I had to chase down and finish off with a rifle. If a 9mm hollow point won't put a 140 lb doe down I am not betting my life on it. Men get much larger than 140 lb.
Many years ago I shot a doe that I would say was even a little smaller than average. I don't shoot does, but I had the permit and we needed the meat. I hit it using my .270, which is certainly enough to put down something much larger. That deer kept running for at least 25 yards then dropped. It even tried to get up and I thought I would have to shoot again, but it went back down for good.

While field dressing it we saw that my bullet literally blew it's heart apart and it looked like ribbons. That deer was dead while it was running and it's brain didn't know it. Adrenaline is something hunters have always had to contend with. Hunting for deer with anything less than a .357 is in my opinion shameful. I personally wouldn't use anything less than a .44 mag, but that's just me.

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Old 08-27-2013, 05:38 AM   #37
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9mm FMJ would perform much worse on a deer than JHP.

image-3389335400.jpg

Minimum tissue damage, tiny wound cavity

I've seen a deer run off after being hit with this:
image-2140610926.jpg

So saying 1 ran off with a 9mmJHP in it doesn't surprise me at all. It's a bad comparison to a shot on a human being.

(Images found here:
http://www.firearmstactical.com/wound.htm
)
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Old 08-27-2013, 02:13 PM   #38
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Generally I don't go with recommendations just because the military or LEOs say so. Many of them are not really "gun guys" and don't know anything more about firearms than the weapons they routinely use.

Now that I have that little disclaimer out of the way, I know many service people who wish they were not limited to FMJ, especially in their 9mm. My brother-in-law had an M16A2 and a M9 in Iraq and Kuwait and while he didn't ever comment about the M16 he did not like his lack of ammo choices for the Beretta. He wasn't always able to get to his rifle (field mechanic) and he had no confidence that if he actually hit anyone in combat with his handgun that it would stop them. Since he has returned and left the military his personal carry weapon is loaded with JHP as is his wife's.

Likewise, while I think the FBI has gone overboard trying to improve pistol ballistics the general consensus has evolved into LEOs carrying JHP's of some sort in their handguns. Not only does this make them more effective but reduces issues with over-penetration.

Shooting a deer is not the same thing as shooting a human being. There are considerable and obvious differences in anatomy.

Finally, handgun rounds suck in general. The sidearm was not conceived to be a primary weapon and if you look elsewhere America is a bit unique when it comes to handguns. In many countries where the police are actually armed it is not unusual to see them sporting some sort of long-arm. I know when I was in India the police were armed with old L1A1's and Sterling SMG's. The only handguns I saw in use were carried by supervisors. When my uncle lived in Germany they talked about the police carrying "machineguns" (I'm sure it was probably an assault rifle or SMG) back in the 80's.

The moral is, if you're going to arm yourself with a handgun then you should take a hard look at what LEOs use. While I may disagree with things like the NY trigger I do think the use of JHP has some merit. Especially if you're talking about something you may have to fire when other citizens could be in close proximity.
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Old 08-27-2013, 02:25 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Axxe55 View Post
9mm JHP ammo wasn't made for deer hunting. you shot it in the shoulder and expected a one shot, drop in it's tracks kill?

wow, just wow.
I didn't shoot the deer. An idiot who was with me shot the deer. I ended up killing a deer I didn't want. You bastards poke blame at people who deliver news you don't want to hear.

In that situation all I could do is finish off the deer and say no more hunting to the moron who shot the deer with a frikin pistol when there were two rifles and a shotgun on the seat.
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Old 08-27-2013, 10:48 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by John_Deer View Post
I didn't shoot the deer. An idiot who was with me shot the deer. I ended up killing a deer I didn't want. You bastards poke blame at people who deliver news you don't want to hear.

In that situation all I could do is finish off the deer and say no more hunting to the moron who shot the deer with a frikin pistol when there were two rifles and a shotgun on the seat.
i apologise for that. i went back and reread it and you did say someone else shot it with a 9mm. you should have broken the idiots hand though.

but the comparison is still off. 9mm isn't made for deer hunting. two different outcomes are to be expected. hunting you want to go for a clean one shot kill as quickly as possible. when shooting a BG, you are are only after stopping a threat, not necessarily having to kill them, just stop them.
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