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Old 09-22-2012, 09:46 PM   #31
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More important than the caliber is the action type. Revolver or semi-auto? Double Action, single action, or double/single? What will it be used for, plinking fun, home defense, personal carry defense, etc? Revolvers are better handguns overall, simply due to less moving parts required to function and be of use. I prefer semi-auto blowback operated and single or double/single because of round capacities, aesthetic appeal, comfort and fit, short trigger responses, and concealability. I abhor double action only, see no value in them whatsoever and will never ever own another. The trigger length is cause for way too much trouble in even a plinking situation, let alone life or death. I'll take a hammer every time, no cocked and locked for me either.

I'll also be the first to admit, I was a victim of the misconception that I needed a bigger caliber to have any validity in self defense. However, since shooting through all kinds of different materials I've come to the realization that anything larger than 380 is overkill and has much too much potential for overpenetration and possible collateral damage, which isn't worth the risk for me. From now on I carry and keep around home only my 22lr pistols. I rely primarily on my gift for gab, charm, and coolheaded nature. Second on my ability, as a mentally fit person, to figure out a better way. Third on my physical fitness to take someone out at close range with my body, or find cover and get to it then run like the wind. Then, finally, if no other option and no question of life endangerment, my 11 rounds of 22lr in combination with the second and/or third.

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Old 09-22-2012, 11:08 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by BeyondTheBox View Post
More important than the caliber is the action type. Revolver or semi-auto? Double Action, single action, or double/single? What will it be used for, plinking fun, home defense, personal carry defense, etc? Revolvers are better handguns overall, simply due to less moving parts required to function and be of use. I prefer semi-auto blowback operated and single or double/single because of round capacities, aesthetic appeal, comfort and fit, short trigger responses, and concealability. I abhor double action only, see no value in them whatsoever and will never ever own another. The trigger length is cause for way too much trouble in even a plinking situation, let alone life or death. I'll take a hammer every time, no cocked and locked for me either.

I'll also be the first to admit, I was a victim of the misconception that I needed a bigger caliber to have any validity in self defense. However, since shooting through all kinds of different materials I've come to the realization that anything larger than 380 is overkill and has much too much potential for overpenetration and possible collateral damage, which isn't worth the risk for me. From now on I carry and keep around home only my 22lr pistols. I rely primarily on my gift for gab, charm, and coolheaded nature. Second on my ability, as a mentally fit person, to figure out a better way. Third on my physical fitness to take someone out at close range with my body, or find cover and get to it then run like the wind. Then, finally, if no other option and no question of life endangerment, my 11 rounds of 22lr in combination with the second and/or third.
While I admire your intentions, your logic could get you in trouble. While you are doing your best to protect innocent bystanders you are opening the door to excessive force. If you shoot someone eleven times with anything you will be tried for murder. Even though you know you were doing what you had to do.

No, I can't prove it. Excessive force is something that is left to the discretion of the arresting officer or DA. There are no clear cut laws that define excessive force but there are rules of thumb. If you shoot someone more than three times the odds are very good you will be charged. The arresting officer will have no remorse. He feels that if it was truly self defense the jury will see it your way.
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Old 09-22-2012, 11:33 PM   #33
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While I admire your intentions, your logic could get you in trouble. While you are doing your best to protect innocent bystanders you are opening the door to excessive force. If you shoot someone eleven times with anything you will be tried for murder. Even though you know you were doing what you had to do.

No, I can't prove it. Excessive force is something that is left to the discretion of the arresting officer or DA. There are no clear cut laws that define excessive force but there are rules of thumb. If you shoot someone more than three times the odds are very good you will be charged. The arresting officer will have no remorse. He feels that if it was truly self defense the jury will see it your way.
I guess I should've been clearer. I simply mean that I will rely on how many ever rounds it takes from the possible 11 of my 22lr. If it's one or all into 1 attacker or 8, I'll defend myself until there's no longer a defense needed, damned the law and it's incompetencies. Too circumstantial and speculative a concept to argue really anyway. I leave the game of conjecture to theoreticists, philosophers, poets, politicians and ignoranmuses.

Oh yeah, and the "law".
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Old 09-22-2012, 11:43 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeyondTheBox

I guess I should've been clearer. I simply mean that I will rely on how many ever rounds it takes from the possible 11 of my 22lr. If it's one or all into 1 attacker or 8, I'll defend myself until there's no longer a defense needed, damned the law and it's incompetencies. Too circumstantial and speculative a concept to argue really anyway. I leave the game of conjecture to theoreticists, philosophers, poets, politicians and ignoranmuses.

Oh yeah, and the "law".
And your fate in the hands of a jury and the best lawyer you can afford.
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Old 09-24-2012, 03:06 PM   #35
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IMO, excessive force is a somewhat arbitrary issue.

If you shoot the law-abiding challenged person once,

I don't see where EF can be made an issue.

Two or three times, readily defensible.

But if you empty a mag into some guy, then

mash his face to pulp with a baseball bat, it's obviously

understandable the cops are going to write up excessive force.


In any event, what they charge you with can be challenged...

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Old 09-25-2012, 02:52 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by therewolf
IMO, excessive force is a somewhat arbitrary issue.

If you shoot the law-abiding challenged person once,

I don't see where EF can be made an issue.

Two or three times, readily defensible.

But if you empty a mag into some guy, then

mash his face to pulp with a baseball bat, it's obviously

understandable the cops are going to write up excessive force.

In any event, what they charge you with can be challenged...
Amen. And even then, if they charge/arrest me, its in the hand of a jury full of my "peers" laughable idea.
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Old 09-25-2012, 02:33 PM   #37
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Is this gun for carry, range/plinking or a little of both? You may want to define its use first and foremost, research cost him nothing but time and a little effort.

9mm is a fairly safe bet for a first gun, very low recoil, cheap practice ammo and many holster and accessory options. A little patience will help ensure he makes an educated decision and spends his money wisely.

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Old 09-27-2012, 12:25 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by therewolf View Post
IMO, excessive force is a somewhat arbitrary issue.

If you shoot the law-abiding challenged person once,

I don't see where EF can be made an issue.

Two or three times, readily defensible.

But if you empty a mag into some guy, then

mash his face to pulp with a baseball bat, it's obviously

understandable the cops are going to write up excessive force.


In any event, what they charge you with can be challenged...
With all due respect, I prefer a caliber that doesn't require that I double tap. If you shoot someone with a 357 three times all but the most determined attackers won't be able to carry on with their attack. In that case the toxicology report will show the attacker was taking mind altering drugs. I prefer the deck is stacked in my favor if I have to be judged by my peers
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I do not shoot with my hand; I shoot with my mind. He who shoots with his hand has forgotten the face of his father.
I do not kill with my gun; I kill with my heart. He who kills with his gun has forgotten the face of his father."

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Old 09-27-2012, 12:37 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old_Crow

With all due respect, I prefer a caliber that doesn't require that I double tap. If you shoot someone with a 357 three times all but the most determined attackers won't be able to carry on with their attack. In that case the toxicology report will show the attacker was taking mind altering drugs. I prefer the deck is stacked in my favor if I have to be judged by n=my peers
Well, 9mm 38spc and 357 are essentially the same caliber. The difference is in the bullet and case length not the caliber.
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Old 09-27-2012, 01:08 AM   #40
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This is one of those questions that's like asking GMC or Ford. Your going to get yourself or your friend confused. Best bet is to do as mentioned and go to your firearm dealer, and handle several different pistols. Take the most comfy ones and shoot them if you can like mentioned. If you want a recommendation mine would be the S&W M&P or the Glock. I own both and they are great. You can adjust the grip sizes to fit your hand, they are very light, easily concealable, super reliable and very accurate. You can't go wrong with either and you can find them for the $500.00 mark or less.

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