380 carry ammo. - Page 4


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Old 05-14-2013, 08:09 PM   #31
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The only .380 I still carry on a regular basis is my lcp. I carry FMJs in it. I just don't like the penetration of HPs out of a .380 of such a short barrel. Anything 9mm and up for me get hollow points. In handguns anyway.



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Old 05-15-2013, 03:14 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Biohazurd View Post
The only .380 I still carry on a regular basis is my lcp. I carry FMJs in it. I just don't like the penetration of HPs out of a .380 of such a short barrel. Anything 9mm and up for me get hollow points. In handguns anyway.
Thanks for your opinion.


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Old 05-15-2013, 03:17 AM   #33
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There is a school of thought that says the JHP rounds are unpredictable. Some may perform exactly as they are designed to. Some may clog with clothing and not expand at all. Some may fragment early and not penetrate as far as they need to. Some may start to expand in clothing and not penetrate enough. All of these rounds may come out of the same box.

Me? I like exit wounds. The fight stopping condition known as hypovolemic shock is likely to happen sooner if your attacker has an entry hole and a drain hole. With a drain hole blood accumulating in a cavity is much less likely to slow or stop bleeding from a vessel or organ injury.

Right about now a bunch of people are pulling out their keyboard trays and getting ready to rip me a new one. Let me save you the trouble. I know the over-penetration fallacy. Every bullet you send down range has a lawyer attached to it, innocent women and children, can travel for miles, and on and on and on. Pay attention.

Statistically at least one of your rounds is going to miss the attacker completely. There is a post here somewhere about a training session in which pairs of trained people faced off against each other with training rounds. They knew what was going to happen, they knew where it was going to happen, within a short time span they knew when it was going to happen, and they knew it was going to hurt. They missed 15% of the time under the best of three scenarios and it got worse from there.

The round that misses will carry a lot more energy than the one that just had much of it's energy depleted traveling through your attacker. The only 100% foolproof way to avoid shooting the bystander is to leave your gun at home. If you carry a sidearm for self defense there is a high degree of risk attached to it. If you don't acknowledge that risk and train to minimize it you risk endangering the bystander. Changing your ammo to make up for careless shooting technique doesn't get it.
Thank you for the explanation. I'm not trying to have careless technique, but if the time comes I want to make sure that I have made the correct decision regarding gun and ammo choices.
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Old 05-15-2013, 03:45 AM   #34
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One issue with the .380 is that we see FPS rates at around 800 to right at 1000 FPS. Most of your typical hollow point bullets need to make impact at around 1000fps to force enough expansion and create enough energy to be effective as a defensive round.

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Old 05-15-2013, 08:06 AM   #35
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Thank you for the explanation. I'm not trying to have careless technique, but if the time comes I want to make sure that I have made the correct decision regarding gun and ammo choices.
Sorry. My point wasn't about your technique. My point was directed to all the shooters that are settling for sub-par ammo because somebody might get hurt when they fire toward a crowd. They tend to believe that they could never miss so they want their ammo to stay inside the bad guy. Statistically, they will miss, which totally defeats their logic. Over-penetration concerns go right out the window when 15% or more of your shots completely miss your target.

Using that 15% number, with a ten round magazine the numbers work out so 1 or 2 shots will miss if you empty your magazine. This is where the technique comes in. If the bad guy has a crowd of people behind him the only way you can know for sure that you won't kill a bystander is to not take the shot, right?

The JHP in the mouse gun crowd will tell you that you can safely shoot the bad guy because their ammo wouldn't dare over-penetrate enough to injure the innocent. Forget about that crowd behind the bad guy. They'll be safe. If anyone takes the shot based on that attitude that is the careless technique I was talking about. They depend on their ammo to keep bystanders safe, and they never for a minute consider that they are endangering others when they miss.

True story. Search for Jacksonville Wendy's Shooting. Four people in a car. Remember that. They were all inside a car. A mama, a toddler, an infant, and a carjacking bank robbery suspect. The officers on scene decided to shoot it out based on actions and threats made by the suspect. 42 shots were fired including a few shotgun rounds. 13 of them hit the suspect. 1 of them hit the infant. 1 of them hit the mama. That's right. Out of 42 shots fired only 13 of them hit the bad guy, a couple of the shotgun rounds hit tires, and 2 other rounds hit the innocents. The toddler was critical for days. Mama is walking, but not well. She was hit in the foot, and the toddler was hit in the arm and chest.

You Will Miss! These people were all inside the same car and how many rounds missed?

Get the best ammo you can find with the penetration you need and carry it. Use your brain to protect the bystander, not your ammo.
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Old 05-15-2013, 09:23 AM   #36
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I have a Kel Tec P-3AT. I load it with WWB or Aguilia FMJ ammo. Aguilia FMJ ammo is slightly hotter and the bullet is regular round shape. I shot a board with Remingtom TMJ ammo. The Remington TMJ acted like it would tumble or change angles while penetrating. I am not sure the 380 has enough velocity to tumble like a FMJ rifle round.

In reference to shooting into a car. Even if the officers took every precaution when shooting the perp some of the shots were going to come out at an angle after passing through the car door and window. Shooting the tires wasn't a bad idea with multiple officers shooting. At least it would be difficult for the bad guy to run over the officers with the car.

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Old 05-15-2013, 12:32 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Doc3402 View Post

Sorry. My point wasn't about your technique. My point was directed to all the shooters that are settling for sub-par ammo because somebody might get hurt when they fire toward a crowd. They tend to believe that they could never miss so they want their ammo to stay inside the bad guy. Statistically, they will miss, which totally defeats their logic. Over-penetration concerns go right out the window when 15% or more of your shots completely miss your target.

Using that 15% number, with a ten round magazine the numbers work out so 1 or 2 shots will miss if you empty your magazine. This is where the technique comes in. If the bad guy has a crowd of people behind him the only way you can know for sure that you won't kill a bystander is to not take the shot, right?

The JHP in the mouse gun crowd will tell you that you can safely shoot the bad guy because their ammo wouldn't dare over-penetrate enough to injure the innocent. Forget about that crowd behind the bad guy. They'll be safe. If anyone takes the shot based on that attitude that is the careless technique I was talking about. They depend on their ammo to keep bystanders safe, and they never for a minute consider that they are endangering others when they miss.

True story. Search for Jacksonville Wendy's Shooting. Four people in a car. Remember that. They were all inside a car. A mama, a toddler, an infant, and a carjacking bank robbery suspect. The officers on scene decided to shoot it out based on actions and threats made by the suspect. 42 shots were fired including a few shotgun rounds. 13 of them hit the suspect. 1 of them hit the infant. 1 of them hit the mama. That's right. Out of 42 shots fired only 13 of them hit the bad guy, a couple of the shotgun rounds hit tires, and 2 other rounds hit the innocents. The toddler was critical for days. Mama is walking, but not well. She was hit in the foot, and the toddler was hit in the arm and chest.

You Will Miss! These people were all inside the same car and how many rounds missed?

Get the best ammo you can find with the penetration you need and carry it. Use your brain to protect the bystander, not your ammo.
I shouldn't have assumed you were talking about me; these are interesting stories.
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Old 05-15-2013, 05:10 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 95sniper

Legit question, why fmj? I'm not trying to start a fight with anyone about which is better, but I would like to know the reasoning behind it.Thanks.
I have my Smith & Wesson that I carry. I alternate rounds in it between Critical Defense and FMJ. One of the two will do the job.
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Old 05-15-2013, 06:09 PM   #39
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I have my Smith & Wesson that I carry. I alternate rounds in it between Critical Defense and FMJ. One of the two will do the job.
I've gotten to the point where I carry FMJ in every pistol except my carry Sig 1911. The chambered round is JHP, then two FMJ and alternate the rest. That Sig has never even hiccuped, but I feel more confident with the first two up being FMJ. I know they feed.

Take this next one for what it's worth. I am not claiming this guy is an expert. The owner of one of our local gun shops won't carry anything but FMJ. His theory is that if he ever ends up in court he'll look better if he carries what is approved by the Hague Convention. In a strange kind of way it makes sense.
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Old 05-15-2013, 07:11 PM   #40
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I like the idea that you have knowing that the first two rounds will feed without a doubt. I know that no matter what, it's gonna hurt the bad guy, the question is, how much. In the winter I may start carrying only FMJ because these little rounds aren't hot enough to go through leather.

I can understand why your friend would say that he only carries FMJ. I can't say that I subscribe to that train of thought, but in the end, a hole in a subject is still a hole, and you can still drop someone.



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