1911vsGlockvsXDMvsM&P...etc - Page 27
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1911vsGlockvsXDMvsM&P...etc


View Poll Results: 1911 or Glock
1911 50 67.57%
Glock 24 32.43%
Voters: 74. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 08-04-2013, 10:37 PM   #261
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Old 08-04-2013, 10:43 PM   #262
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thatonespot View Post
Really man? Come one, just because you're gettin torn up in one thread, doesn't mean you should start essentially the same thread but without the poll.
We all understand your position at this point.
Arguing on the internet never changed anything.
I was asked to quit posting on the poll thread and start my own thread, so that's what I did. I didn't get "tore up", I got a few negative responses from people who have invested their egos into mechanically inferior designs, in terms of reliability, because they are unwilling to admit to themselves that they made poor decisions with respect to their pistol selection.

I readily admit to my mistakes, but choosing a mechanically simpler design to bet my life on isn't one of them.

The reason nobody has posted any mathematical evidence here is because they don't have any.

I'm not trying to change opinions, I'm trying to get someone to explain their mathematical justification, if they can produce one, for using a more complicated mechanical design over a less complicated mechanical design given that for fixed cost and time, it's not possible to produce those two devices with equivalent mechanical reliability.

So, can you or anyone else here explain to me how a mechanically more complicated design is inherently more reliable than a less complicated design for fixed time and cost?
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Old 08-04-2013, 10:55 PM   #263
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I think it boils down to an emotional issue (will be hard for some of you cave men to get this) Nobody builds a relationship with the plastic guns (and i do really like my SR/SRc autos) They do not become family treasures. They are disposable, like a Bic lighter. They are not "investment" grade guns. The Glock may be a more efficient firearm. But in 50yrs it will be an empty 2 liter 7up bottle in a landfill. The 1911 will be somebodys prized possesion, passed down to her, by her Grandfather........
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Old 08-04-2013, 10:58 PM   #264
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbd512

I was asked to quit posting on the poll thread and start my own thread, so that's what I did. I didn't get "tore up", I got a few negative responses from people who have invested their egos into mechanically inferior designs, in terms of reliability, because they are unwilling to admit to themselves that they made poor decisions with respect to their pistol selection.

I readily admit to my mistakes, but choosing a mechanically simpler design to bet my life on isn't one of them.

The reason nobody has posted any mathematical evidence here is because they don't have any.

I'm not trying to change opinions, I'm trying to get someone to explain their mathematical justification, if they can produce one, for using a more complicated mechanical design over a less complicated mechanical design given that for fixed cost and time, it's not possible to produce those two devices with equivalent mechanical reliability.

So, can you or anyone else here explain to me how a mechanically more complicated design is inherently more reliable than a less complicated design for fixed time and cost?
I think you are trying to way over simplify things in your comparison. Glock is a company, 1911 is a type of gun made made LOTS of companys. Each company can have varying tolerances, which will ultimately affect accuracy and reliability. If you have loose tolerances, the gun will run theough anything, but will have subpar accuracy compared to one with tight tolerances. Mathematically, most modern 1911s and glocks have very very few FTEs or FTFs. Its not unrealistic to expect each one to have zero failures. Which would make them equal until one of them has a failure of some sort. But we cant forget about human error. A human can cause a failure in a firearm.

What i am really trying to say, is these two cant possibly be truely compared to cover all the bases. It simply impossible because there's too many variables. You have asked for math to prove you wrong, but you have provided zero math to prove your point. I dont think youre wrong or right. And i dont want to be part of a stick waving competition. You can logic or reason as much as you want, but definitive, undeniable math is not possible in this situation.
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Old 08-04-2013, 11:02 PM   #265
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Which thread is that?

KBD, I do agree with the basis of that argument, BTW. Simpler is better. (But complicated can be cool, LOL)
Of course 1911's are cool. You'll get no argument from me on that point. I wanted a 1911 since I was a kid and now that I'm a bigger kid I have my own. I like the way it looks, the way it sounds, and the way it feels, but that's not what I use as the basis of a decision on a carry pistol because its foundation is in personal preference and not cold, hard logic and mathematics.
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Old 08-04-2013, 11:05 PM   #266
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Originally Posted by kbd512 View Post

So, let me ask you this; What does your 1911 do that a Glock won't do?
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Old 08-04-2013, 11:13 PM   #267
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I think it boils down to an emotional issue (will be hard for some of you cave men to get this) Nobody builds a relationship with the plastic guns (and i do really like my SR/SRc autos) They do not become family treasures. They are disposable, like a Bic lighter. They are not "investment" grade guns. The Glock may be a more efficient firearm. But in 50yrs it will be an empty 2 liter 7up bottle in a landfill. The 1911 will be somebodys prized possesion, passed down to her, by her Grandfather........
I guess I feel differently about weapons than most people do.

To me a weapon is only a tool and will only ever be a tool. If my tool is lost, damaged, destroyed, or taken from me, I could care less as long as I can obtain a new tool to replace it with. I don't need my specific pistol, I just need a pistol that functions reliably and has good service life. Given the choice, I will always select a pistol that's lighter, has a higher magazine capacity, and a greater tolerance for the likely use and abuse that it will see during its service life.

I have six Colt revolvers, two Colt carbines, and a Colt 1911 but only one Glock, so it should be pretty apparent what brand of gun I like most, but the Glock was purchased for entirely different reasons.

If my Glock eventually becomes a pop bottle, I won't bat an eye.
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Old 08-04-2013, 11:14 PM   #268
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A Sig 1911's complete engineering creates a more efficient, better quality, better control and more accurate weapon's system then any Glock ever made. Mechanical efficiency is determined by the reliability of the whole system, minimal operating energy and quality of parts. Mathematics? How about the body count of US force's and/or allies' enemies from the 1900s through today. Britain still has the .45 in their arsenals.
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Old 08-04-2013, 11:32 PM   #269
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Originally Posted by TheSadPanda View Post
I think you are trying to way over simplify things in your comparison. Glock is a company, 1911 is a type of gun made made LOTS of companys. Each company can have varying tolerances, which will ultimately affect accuracy and reliability. If you have loose tolerances, the gun will run theough anything, but will have subpar accuracy compared to one with tight tolerances. Mathematically, most modern 1911s and glocks have very very few FTEs or FTFs. Its not unrealistic to expect each one to have zero failures. Which would make them equal until one of them has a failure of some sort. But we cant forget about human error. A human can cause a failure in a firearm.
You're right, the 1911 is produced in a wildly varying array of flavors whereas only one company produces the Glock design. That's not entirely true, but for purposes of the argument, let's work off that assumption.

Can a 1911 generally function as reliably as, say a Glock 21, at the same price point? There are always exceptions to the rule in specific cases, but it doesn't say much about the general case.

Human error was a main contention point in one of my arguments on this issue. There are things that any competent operator just wouldn't do to a pistol, especially a 1911, but if those same things are done to a Glock it still manages to function reliably.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSadPanda View Post
What i am really trying to say, is these two cant possibly be truely compared to cover all the bases. It simply impossible because there's too many variables. You have asked for math to prove you wrong, but you have provided zero math to prove your point. I dont think youre wrong or right. And i dont want to be part of a stick waving competition. You can logic or reason as much as you want, but definitive, undeniable math is not possible in this situation.
You're right on the variables parts, but given the general case which pistol will function more reliably, the simpler or more complicated one?

I don't want a stick waving competition, either. I want someone to demonstrate how a more complicated mechanical pistol design is more reliable than a simpler mechanical design. I don't want to teach a course in or provide evidence of how complexity theory relates to mechanical design, I want the posters to educate themselves on that topic. The principles of how complexity relates to the reliability of mechanical design don't just apply to pistol design, it's universal.
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Old 08-04-2013, 11:39 PM   #270
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What is better.

This simple design?

1911vsGlockvsXDMvsM&P...etc - Semi-Auto Handguns

Or this more complex designed?

1911vsGlockvsXDMvsM&P...etc - Semi-Auto Handguns




I see both the 1911 and the GLOCK as super reliable, efficient, well made guns that will do any job you need them to. Unfortunately, there are people who are so caught up in their love for one particular gun, that they'll start threads to bash anything they see as competition. It's sad really. It kind of brings the term "fanboy" to a whole new level.
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