Who's all excited about the new open carry law? - Page 9
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Old 05-21-2013, 01:44 AM   #81
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And that's the only reason I didn't include them in the discussion. It was NEVER intended to snub law enforcement. But even with their inclusion, I still personally don't see it as a viable threat. It's awful rare, regardless of whether it happens or not.

And like you pointed out, Tack, it's just as likely (probably more so), to be killed in a car accident, and driving is something the vast majority do every single day. I, myself, have right at 20 thousand miles on a car that I'll have had for one year this coming July. I'll likely put another 5 thousand on it by then. Statistically, I should be dead as hell. Incidentally, I had a very close call this morning. (and I didn't even count the 100 miles plus that I drive every day, or every shift, in my work truck...when it has a working transmission...)

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Old 05-21-2013, 10:18 AM   #82
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Trip,

You wanted ONE story that didn't involve law enforcement, security guards and a whole list of other occupations. Well, here is the one you asked for.

Quote:
Authorities said the two suspects followed Tyler into the BP station and that Tyler's gun was taken from his holster during a struggle, even though Tyler had not drawn his weapon on the assailants.

"Tyler's handgun was taken from his person, and within 30 seconds he was shot with a handgun," Johnson said. "At this point, we cannot confirm that he was shot with his gun." He added, "We believe only one shot was fired, and that was the fatal shot."
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Does that meet your requirements?
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Old 05-21-2013, 10:22 AM   #83
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No, they would never dream of trying to grab an OCer's gun.

Quote:
An unarmed man attempted to rob an Eastern Michigan University student of his handgun Thursday morning while he walked on Pearl Street near the campus in Ypsilanti, university officials said.

According to an email alert sent out by EMU, the student — an open-carry advocate — was walking at about 9:15 a.m. in the 300 block of Pearl Street when he was approached by an unknown man. The man grabbed the student’s holstered handgun and attempted to wrestle it away from the student, according to the alert.
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Old 05-21-2013, 12:38 PM   #84
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So, there are reported incidents. Some with tragic outcomes. That is the kind of information Trip has been asking for. Is there any information out there relating to frequency of that situation?

Still doesn't make OC invalid as a carry method. Retention holsters, focus on situational awareness, sticking to familiar surroundings, there are still a number of ways to reduce opportunities like the one in the article. CC would minimize the chance of these bad guys knowing Tyler had a gun on him. But it could also minimize his chances to use the gun in another situation with equally tragic consequences.

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Old 05-21-2013, 01:59 PM   #85
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That is the kind of information Trip has been asking for. Is there any information out there relating to frequency of that situation?
I don't know. We know how many LEO's are out there, and we have an incident rate based on that, but how may people OC? I doubt there are any stats on that to work from. I do know that it appears to be extremely low, but it has happened.
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Old 05-21-2013, 02:03 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by Doc3402 View Post
Trip,

You wanted ONE story that didn't involve law enforcement, security guards and a whole list of other occupations. Well, here is the one you asked for.

Link to Story

Does that meet your requirements?
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No, they would never dream of trying to grab an OCer's gun.

Link to Story
So what's the deal man? I came out and proved I wasn't snubbing LEO by not including them, and ignored your bullying PM, so now you want to try to pick a fight by reigniting something that's been well settled already?

Yeah, that's all you're doing is trying to pick a fight because you got your panties in a twist when you made an ass of yourself by assuming something that never was.

We've established that it CAN, and it HAS happened. No one has yet established that it's a highly probable risk, which is what antis were claiming. And I never said it HASN'T happened, on the contrary, I've stated many times that I'm positive it has.

I've established that I have not offered any insult to the law enforcement community during discussion of this subject.

You ready to let it drop?
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Old 05-21-2013, 02:17 PM   #87
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Consider it dropped.

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Old 06-02-2013, 05:05 AM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc3402 View Post
I don't know. We know how many LEO's are out there, and we have an incident rate based on that, but how may people OC? I doubt there are any stats on that to work from. I do know that it appears to be extremely low, but it has happened.
I do not have quantitative statistics on % of people who can OC that do so. But, since November 2012, I've been OC.

I was expecting to be approached by LEOs checking licenses. I did not get what I expected. Not one contact by any LEO. No "OMG he's got a gun" calls. No "just checking because you're making people nervous" visits. Nada. I even started out wearing one of those lanyards so the license would be easily seen. Totally unnecessary.

Once I realized that no one seemed to get upset about it, I started watching more closely. Surprise, surprise, most people are blithely unaware of their surroundings. A lot of people don't even notice I'm carrying. Those that do notice don't seem to care.

Not being the brightest bulb on the tree, my next conjecture was maybe people are seeing OC often enough that they're already used to it. WRONG AGAIN! I've been looking since about February or March. Everyplace I go, I look for other OCers. I have yet to see one. Not ONE (besides me). The guys at the LGS all open carry in the store. But I don't think they OC outside.

I'm working on changing my clothing selections to make it feasible for me to CC and still be able to deploy in a reasonable time. Switching from button down shirts (with long tails that look trashy untucked) to polo shirts with square bottoms. I plan to tuck in the polo shirt for the office environment (where I'm not allowed to carry at all) and untuck when I leave. Holster the gun IWB when I get to my car and cover with the untucked shirt. My problem with IWB tuckable is that I've been unable to reliably clear the tucked in shirt tail. By dressing untucked (except at work), I hope to be able to deploy reliably.

If that all works out, I may switch to CC a lot of the time. But I've also found that the perceived disadvantages of OC have forced me to improve my situation awareness. I wonder whether I'll continue to try to improve once I start trusting in my stealthy CC condition.
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Old 06-03-2013, 12:26 AM   #89
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So, I've tried a couple different approaches with a shot timer on my phone. By setting the sensitivity down around 60 dB it will pick up the click of the dry fire.

First I tried a polo shirt tucked in. I found that I could pretty reliably clear the shirt in one pull. After practicing that for a while this morning, I tried some timings. Most were in the range of 3 to 4 seconds.

Second I tried a polo shirt untucked with IWB holster. It conceals well enough and is easier to clear. Some more practice time and I'm down to 2.7 to 3.2 seconds.

Third I went back to open carry OWB. Some more practice time and that technique is 2.3 to 2.5 seconds.

I'm sure with practice all of these times will come down. I'm pretty sure that the times will remain in the same order. Fastest time is OC, next fastest is untucked IWB and slowest is tucked IWB.

I've heard various Internet sources say a person needs to be able to draw and fire the first hit within 1.5 to 2 seconds. My opinion of most Internet sources is, frankly, not very high. But if a typical gunfight is over in 3 seconds or so, a draw time in that range does seem like a reasonable goal. God only knows how much practice I will need to get any of these in the desired range. And there will always be a difference between OC and CC.

So here's the question. How much slower can the CC (IWB untucked) time be and still be preferable for self defense over OC (OWB)?

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Old 06-06-2013, 12:07 PM   #90
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Remember what I said about not being the brightest bulb on the tree? I was carrying IWB with a small DeSantis tuckable holster. Went to the bathroom. When I lowered my pants, the bottom of the holster hung up on my leg, flipped over and dumped my gun on the floor. No ND, thank God. Yes, I know it was my error and not the holster's fault. Still, I wonder whether I should keep that holster or get another with less potential to flip, like a CrossBreed SuperTuck or similar?

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