Who's all excited about the new open carry law? - Page 8
Firearm & Gun Forum - FireArmsTalk.com > Events and Meetups > State Forums > Oklahoma Gun Forum > Who's all excited about the new open carry law?

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-20-2013, 08:21 PM   #71
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: West, by God, Funroe,Louisiana
Posts: 18,707
Liked 9206 Times on 5058 Posts
Likes Given: 74

Default

And oh my damn, I finally actually read the article you linked. Did you?

"You do not write policies to deal with the extreme," said Michael Brady, an expert in police procedures in the Administration of Justice department at Salve Regina University in Newport. "The one thing the incidents do have in common is that they are a reminder of how dangerous police work is."

"It's one too many when it happens," Brady said. "But if you look nationwide, the frequency of a police officer's gun being taken by a suspect is extremely rare."

Seems it doesn't even support your argument that this is that big of a problem even among the law enforcement community.

__________________
trip286 is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2013, 08:27 PM   #72
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Tackleberry1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Vancouver,WA
Posts: 6,147
Liked 4983 Times on 2413 Posts
Likes Given: 1586

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by edm1911 View Post
I also will still conceal but it will be nice to know it my shirt comes untucked or my jacket flies opened with the wind it might no be as big of a deal, If I am making any sence. Long hours and no sleep it taking its toll. Lol
It is quite nice having both options...

I don't remove my EDC until I go to bed but I'll often remove my "cover" shirt once I'm home.

It's really nice to be able to take the dog out for a piss, or get something out of my truck, without worrying about the neighbors calling the po po...

Suppose they still could call but having OC legal makes it a moot point and most of neighbors already know that I'm the friendly local neighborhood gun nut.

Tack
__________________
Tackleberry1 is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2013, 08:29 PM   #73
FTF_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Jacksonville,FL
Posts: 2,823
Liked 1768 Times on 989 Posts
Likes Given: 1302

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by trip286 View Post
The entire discussion has been about civilians gaining (or regaining) the right to carry a firearm openly if they so choose.

Tell ya what, I could correlate wearing camo pants to an increased likelihood of being killed too, if I include the military. So what's your point?

To try to imply that I don't care about, or think less of, or that I'm implying that LEO's are less of a human being than I am, because I'm not including them in a discussion of CIVILIANS having their lawfully openly carried firearms taken by force and used against them, is ludicrous. I'm not including them because a person who is in uniform, and who's job it is to wrangle the criminal element from our society, is going to be in a compromised situation nearly every day.

You're picking a single word and a small phrase and taking it entirely out of context just to try to use it to discredit my statements. How bout you find something that you don't have to take out of context and try to twist it's intent, hmmm?

And since you seem to know so much about taking things out of context and trying to twist their meanings into something they were never meant to be, I'll just refer you to my buddy here. Easier to hit the "quote" button than it is to rewrite the same thing someone else has said already.

"By BROOKE DONALD
The Associated Press

Over a recent six-week period, a handful of officers from Rhode Island to Illinois had their guns taken from them after they allegedly were overpowered by suspects or inmates. In each case, the ending was deadly.

The incidents have shaken departments and raised questions about safety procedures. But some law enforcement experts say not much will change _ and shouldn't. Despite the latest tragedies, they say there's no evidence that basic procedure is failing officers."
Trooper Charles Campbell

Quote:
On the morning of November 17, Florida Highway Patrol Trooper Charles Eugene Campbell recognized the stolen car near Perry, Florida and attempted to make an arrest, but after he was pulled over, Knowles was able to wrestle the officer's pistol away from him. Taking Campbell hostage, he drove away in his patrol car, later using its siren to stop motorist James Meyer in order to ditch the Highway Patrol vehicle and continue in a less conspicuous automobile. Now burdened with two prisoners, Knowles took the two men into a remote, wooded area in Pulaski County, Georgia and handcuffed them to a tree before shooting each of them in the head at close range. Shortly thereafter, Knowles attempted to crash through a police roadblock in Henry County, Georgia, but he lost control of the vehicle and smashed into a tree. He escaped the vehicle on foot and fired shots at the pursuing officers. A chaotic footrace ensued, with Knowles pursued by dogs, law enforcement officers from several agencies, and helicopters. He was finally cornered by an armed civilian with a shotgun several miles from the focussed area of the search, who escorted Knowles to a nearby residence where a call to the police was made. Knowles was outside of the perimeter established for the manhunt and would have escaped if not for the actions of the local civilians. The maniacal crime spree of John Paul Knowles had come to an end.
Tell me he doesn't count. Tell me this can't happen to a civilian.
__________________
Doc3402 is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2013, 08:31 PM   #74
FTF_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Jacksonville,FL
Posts: 2,823
Liked 1768 Times on 989 Posts
Likes Given: 1302

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by trip286 View Post
And oh my damn, I finally actually read the article you linked. Did you?

"You do not write policies to deal with the extreme," said Michael Brady, an expert in police procedures in the Administration of Justice department at Salve Regina University in Newport. "The one thing the incidents do have in common is that they are a reminder of how dangerous police work is."

"It's one too many when it happens," Brady said. "But if you look nationwide, the frequency of a police officer's gun being taken by a suspect is extremely rare."

Seems it doesn't even support your argument that this is that big of a problem even among the law enforcement community.
You wanted one example. How many were there? Was it six examples?
__________________
Doc3402 is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2013, 08:43 PM   #75
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: West, by God, Funroe,Louisiana
Posts: 18,707
Liked 9206 Times on 5058 Posts
Likes Given: 74

Default

I'll get back to you when I get to a computer, if a moderator doesn't lock this thread too.

__________________
trip286 is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2013, 08:54 PM   #76
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Tackleberry1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Vancouver,WA
Posts: 6,147
Liked 4983 Times on 2413 Posts
Likes Given: 1586

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc3402 View Post
Trooper Charles Campbell



Tell me he doesn't count. Tell me this can't happen to a civilian.
So... we should take away Cops guns... Right? Then they can't be wrestled away and used against them... and civilians.

Sorry for jumping in... you guy's are obviously debating something deeper than I gleaned from the one post.

Tack
__________________
Tackleberry1 is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2013, 09:11 PM   #77
FTF_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Jacksonville,FL
Posts: 2,823
Liked 1768 Times on 989 Posts
Likes Given: 1302

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tackleberry1 View Post
So... we should take away Cops guns... Right? Then they can't be wrestled away and used against them... and civilians.

Sorry for jumping in... you guy's are obviously debating something deeper than I gleaned from the one post.

Tack
I didn't intend for that thought to get out there at all. What we need to understand is that if it can happen to a LEO, it can happen to a civilian. Trip is looking for examples of someone getting their gun snatched and having it used against them, but he's eliminating scores of people this has already happened to just because they happen to wear a uniform.
__________________
Doc3402 is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2013, 10:17 PM   #78
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: West, by God, Funroe,Louisiana
Posts: 18,707
Liked 9206 Times on 5058 Posts
Likes Given: 74

Default

Okay, first off, I'll address the fact that you're very specifically taking a single statement out of context and trying to twist it's meaning, even after I've tried oh so hard to set you straight on my meaning, which you are so blatantly ignoring.

You suggest that I think less of LEO's and that I've implied things I haven't. From the thread you've referenced:

Here are the rules:
1. Armed security and cops? They don't count. This is an argument pro/con on the subject of the "AVERAGE" LAC Open Carrying a handgun."


Now, why did I say that? Because the argument is against civilians open carrying a handgun in their day to day lives. It's very obvious that civilians and cops live very different professional lives, and have very different duties. What brought up that point? It's because so many people claim that a civilian open carrying a handgun makes them a target. The whole damn conversation has nothing to do with cops. Cops have always carried guns. It's about the average LAC being allowed, or reallowed to carry handguns openly.

I've tried to explain that to you, but it's very obvious you're hell bent and determined to make this an issue. Oh well...

And I'll address this...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc3402 View Post
Tell me he doesn't count. Tell me this can't happen to a civilian.
With yet another copy and paste from my thread that has been closed, yet you're dragging into this, along with yet another statement momentarily.

"I always say, "I'm sure it's happened... but when?"
"Even I agree that it can happen."

And yet again, I've never implied that LEOs are unimportant or of little value as people or professionals. This is a conclusion that you're drawing out of your hat. The only thing I've stated is that they aren't the subject of conversation, and they weren't, as per the anti OCers arguments that I was addressing to begin with. I'm especially not trying to imply that myself, my brother, uncle, 2 great grandfathers, 2 grand uncles, and numerous cousins and close personal friends, fall into the category of being of less value. Maybe you should work on reading comprehension, or, as I suggested before, get to know someone before you try to speak what you think is on their mind. A simple, "Hey, trip, what the hell exactly are you saying? Where are you coming from?" could clear up a lot of this. But would it matter? I've tried explaining, yet you don't seem to care...

At this point, it simply looks like you're trying to pick a fight, and really, I should just stop right now, but, if you've read many of my posts, you would know I can't resist a good argument.

Maybe if I keep it clean, and keep from telling you what I'm really starting to think of you, the mods will let it stand? We'll see. Let's continue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc3402 View Post
You're the one that wanted stories about open carry people having their gun used against them. It's not my fault you tried to prove your 'hasn't happened' point by trying to narrow things down to the family poodle. There are dozens of stories out there, you just won't listen to them because they don't fit your sub-group.
!
Never said it "hasn't happened", read above statement in red. And as far as
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc3402 View Post
you just won't listen to them because they don't fit your sub-group.
!
? You're really grasping at straws there. No wait, let me clarify, that's the statement of a man who hasn't read anything, or hasn't understood anything. Or is just trying to pick a fight...

If you'd read through the thread you're dredging up, you would see that I allowed several unsubstantiated claims stand, stories from overseas, several "I heards", the example of the MIT cop killed by the Boston bombers, and several other examples that didn't fit the profile I asked for at all (which is only the profile that anti OCers keep insisting on). Yes, if you read through it, you'd see that I've actually been quite liberal with allowing examples that don't fit the profile I've asked for (again, the profile forced upon me by antis).

Okay, now let's address this...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc3402 View Post
You wanted one example. How many were there? Was it six examples?
No. Again, you seem to have trouble comprehending what you're reading. I'll clarify as I reply to this \/ post.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc3402 View Post
I didn't intend for that thought to get out there at all. What we need to understand is that if it can happen to a LEO, it can happen to a civilian. Trip is looking for examples of someone getting their gun snatched and having it used against them, but he's eliminating scores of people this has already happened to just because they happen to wear a uniform.
Okay then. Let's throw the uniforms in there, shall we? From the article you linked, which you apparently failed to read, or understand...

"There are no national statistics on how many times officers' guns are taken away. But the FBI says that of the 616 law enforcement officers killed on duty by criminals from 1994 through 2003, 52 were killed with their own weapon, amounting to 8 percent."

Holy sheep doody, batman!!! 52 killed with their own weapon from 1994-2003!!! I believe that works out to... Just a little over an average of 5.7 per year. Still, hardly what I would consider an epidemic. Maybe you think differently?

Now, to address a concern you've expressed, yet again...
I am not, nor have I ever, belittled or implied that LEOs are less of a person, or that they don't matter, that they're subhuman, or in any other way of less value than myself or anyone else. And I will not apologize to you for you getting that impression, as because it's very, very evident to me, that it's not my fault for you not understanding. I have not insulted the memory of your friend, except in your own mind. I have never intended insult to any LEO, except in your mind.

And I don't place a lesser value on the lives lost in any situation, even though it may appear so, as I refer to these statistics as "not an epidemic". No, I'm not just disregarding anyone's lives, I'm simply pointing out that the evidence still seems to imply that open carrying a handgun does not certainly put a target on your back. On the contrary, it seems to me that getting struck by lighting is a much higher risk than having your sidearm taken and used against you, as a cop, or as a civilian.
__________________
trip286 is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2013, 01:10 AM   #79
I used to play keyboards, but now...
FTF_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Balota's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Glenpool, Oklahoma
Posts: 3,383
Liked 2360 Times on 1428 Posts
Likes Given: 2484

Default

One important reason not to include LEOs in the list when searching for examples of LACs: LEOs are required to get within grappling distance of people who would try to take their guns. Even so, only 8% of murdered LEOs are killed with their own guns. The reported statistic is 52 over a 10 year period nationwide.

LACs (if they're being careful, as they are supposed to be trained to be...) should not be getting within grappling distance of such folk. This LAC certainly won't be. My probability of encountering that situation even once in my lifetime is exceedingly low, much lower than any LEO. Am I trained in active weapon retention techniques? Do I practice them in the gym with my fellow LACs? No and no. But I am trained to avoid risky areas (an advantage that the LEOs emphatically do not have) and to run away at the first sign of trouble (also something the LEOs shouldn't be doing).

On balance, I believe my risks of being killed with my own gun are acceptably low. I believe my chances of being able to deploy my gun from OC when needed in a useful time frame is much better than those chances with CC, at least at my present skill and equipment level.

Neither Trip nor I are trying to talk any of you into OC. We respect your decision to CC and understand it. Both of us would CC if that option was viable for us. At present that option is not viable, so we OC since it's better than throwing rocks. But we would like it if we were not characterized as idiots or showoffs.

__________________

Balota
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." 2nd Amendment to the Constitution of the United States
Practice does NOT make perfect. Practice makes permanent. Only perfect practice makes perfect.

Check out 5th FTF Shoot & Hoot.http://www.firearmstalk.com/forums/f138/5th-ftf-shotgun-shoot-hoot-vanzant-mo-apr-11-12-2015-a-109479/

Balota is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2013, 02:32 AM   #80
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Tackleberry1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Vancouver,WA
Posts: 6,147
Liked 4983 Times on 2413 Posts
Likes Given: 1586

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc3402 View Post
I didn't intend for that thought to get out there at all. What we need to understand is that if it can happen to a LEO, it can happen to a civilian. Trip is looking for examples of someone getting their gun snatched and having it used against them, but he's eliminating scores of people this has already happened to just because they happen to wear a uniform.
Well... Logically I'm probably going to agree with Tripp on this one...

OC Civilians are under no obligation to use "minimal" force in any dangerous encounter. LEO's are far more restricted on when and how they can "present" a weapon. Common sense would tell me that the act of cuffing/handling suspects is when scuffles break out and guns get snatched.

Could a "gang" of men overwhelm an OC Civilian for the purpose of getting there weapon... sure... and I could killed tomorrow by a blue hair in a Park Avenue that should have had her license revoked 5 years ago.

There is risk in everything we do but the risk to civilian OCer's "in my mind" does not equate to the risk faced by LEO's specifically because of an LEO's job.

Tack
__________________
Tackleberry1 is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Firearms Forum Replies Last Post
Open carry or not partdeux General Handgun Discussion 37 10-08-2011 12:51 AM
So can I open carry in MS or what? Scratchammo Legal and Activism 3 01-31-2011 07:41 PM
Open Carry aussierogue The Club House 25 04-14-2010 12:20 AM
Open Carry vs. Concealed Carry Debate Tony Soprano The Club House 31 08-06-2009 05:23 AM