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theferg2000 12-07-2010 02:22 PM

Truth from a laser salesman? Or just trying to sell a laser?
I was at buds gun range the other day trying to break in my new Taurus 740 slim line (and no, i am not looking for the Taurus hating here -lol)

So i put about 100 rounds through the gun, and after a little bit of getting used to the gun, all of my shots were grouping at about 3 inches. not a single group worse than that.

but all of my groups were significantly low and to the left. I concluded that i needed to adjust the site, but was more interested in getting the gun broken in, and did not bring anything to work on it.

After wards i was browsing, and a crimson trace rep happened to be at buds restocking some inventory, and he asked me what i had, and tried pushing a laser for my gun. I told him i was not interested, but told him i did need to get my sight adjusted - just being nice/for conversation.

I told him that it was shooting low and to the left, but my grouping was at about 3 inches, and he proceeded to tell me that he bet i was anticipating before firing (i know what he meant, and early in my shooting, i was absolutely guilty of this for a short time). BUT i told him i did not think that could be the issue as the other gun i took was hitting the mark with about three inch grouping, PLUS i would think a consistent 3 inch group would be hard to achieve if you were anticipating. Also the group was always off by the same distance low and to the left several inches for both. He would not have any of that, and persistently stuck to the fact that i was anticipating. Well i just let it go.

Being that i am no expert by any means, and want to get better if i am screwing up, i thought i would get some more neutral opinions here. Am i right here? Is it likely that someone could be anticipating and CONSISTENTLY (and i mean not one shot out of the group off for several clips) group well?

If you are anticipating wouldn't the grouping be all over the place? I left him with joking that i did not think i could anticipate that consistently.

NGIB 12-07-2010 02:33 PM

Someone needs to post the "target" here as low-left is really a common problem...

JTJ 12-07-2010 02:59 PM

I find that if I anticipate, I shoot low and left. It causes you to push the gun down and left. If I twitch on hammer drop, I shoot high and right. This happpens when the hammer suddenly releases after a hard creepy trigger pull. Trying to push the shot will cause a low hit. Some of the triggers are so lawyered up it is hard not to do one or the other. I dont have the problem with my Glocks but the guns with long not so smooth trigger pulls make them harder to control. I had the trigger on my SP101 worked over to make it smoother. A friend has a Colt 1911 that he shoots about 4" high and right. His gun has a definate sight problem and needs the sights adjusted so it is not always the shooter. Have someone else shoot the pistol and see where it is shooting. Also higher speed ammo will shoot lower due to time in the barrel as the gun is recoiling.

Dillinger 12-07-2010 03:14 PM

2 Attachment(s)

Originally Posted by NGIB (Post 398621)
Someone needs to post the "target" here as low-left is really a common problem...

Here is the target that NGIB was talking about, this is for Right Handed Shooters.

As you can see, there is a fine line between tightening the fingers ( strangling your grip ) and "slapping". Which is often confused by wannabe know it alls.

If all of your 3" groups were in that sliver, than slapping the trigger is about as consistant as one can get I would imagine.

However, it's more likely to believe that you are holding the weapon with a bit too much moxy and that is leading to you being low and left time and time again.

The good news is, whenever a new ( or newer ) shooter can group several shots together at any point on the target, it is MUCH easier to correct and get that same group moved to the right part of the target.

I printed a bunch of these targets out and got Shoot-n-See stick on targets that were big enough to just cover the 10 ring ( the 2" or 3" ones worked great ) and I made about 50 copies.

Take them to the range and shot like you normally would. When your rounds on not striking where you want, you have instant feedback on the target itself to try and correct with your next magazine. ;)


Missileman 12-07-2010 04:32 PM

A good test to see if the sights are the problem: Hold the pistol with your shooting hand only enough not to drop it. Wrap your other (supporting) hand around your grip and squeeze so that the supporting hand is what is holding the pistol on target. Use just the tip/end of your finger on the trigger and squess off a shot while coninuing to squeeze hard with your supporting hand and not with your shooting hand. Try this a few times--it will tell you almost always where your sights are aimed and where the gun naturally shoots.

ScottA 12-07-2010 04:44 PM

Milking the grip is the first thing that came to my mind.

theferg2000 12-07-2010 06:48 PM

Thanks for all the replies, and great advice, i will try each one.

But let me give you a bit more info and see what you think. My tests were with a .40 single action, where as the other pistol i fired was . 380 S&W Bodyguard (double action), with what i think is a pretty long trigger pull.

I know that i used to have a problem with shooting low and left (along with many others), but with practice corrected it (i have been shooting for about 4 years or so). So i was going over everything in my mind that i have learned. But with the .380 DA, i was right where i wanted to be on every group. I even switched over to hers, and back to mine to see if i was just not doing something right. And the shots were probably about 8-10 inches low and about 6-8 inches to the left at 7 yards.

I have been sick for the last year and a half or so, so i have taken a break from regular practice, and am just getting back into it. Please don't take this reply as one of those "just agree with me, I am right" posts. I just want to get all the info out, and if i am wrong, then i am wrong, and i want to correct it. Thanks for the input.

NGIB 12-07-2010 06:57 PM

I will say that I did have one Taurus (not for long) that did actually shoot low & left. Can't remember which model it was, I think a Millenium Pro, and I tweaked the sights to get it better before I traded it off. I've also read more than a few threads about folks sending their guns back due to "accuracy" problems.

Shoot it off a rest and allow a few others to shoot it the same way. This will absolutely tell you whether it's the gun or technique...

Dillinger 12-07-2010 07:30 PM

Ferg - Can you tell us where on the clock your groups are at?

7 O'clock?

8 O'clock?


Because you might have two problems going against you. Shooting the same weapon off a rest as NGIB stated would be a great start. Do you have another experienced shooter who can go to the range with you?

JTJ 12-07-2010 07:56 PM

According to your chart I am mistaken about anticipation being the cause of the low left. I sometimes use a laser on dry fire and I find that on a long hard pull I would at times try to force the shot and the dot goes down and left. I called that anticipaion but may be I should have called it impatience. I dont have it happen on a good SA or striker. Also in dry fire I have watched the laser dot move to the right on hammer drop. Again with long hard pulls. I shot a P11 today ( no laser) and you probably know their reputation on triggers. I was able to control it fairly well thanks to dry fire practice and a lot of rounds through a previous P11. I also find it much harder to shoot consistant groups when the grips are too small. My PF9 was too small. I have also found that if I put the safety on or squeeze on an uncocked striker, the harder I squeeze the tighter my grip gets and I start pushing down and left. I am probably doing the same thing on a hard trigger.

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