Shot some telephone books, results not what I expected.
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Shot some telephone books, results not what I expected.


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Old 02-13-2010, 06:43 PM   #1
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Default Shot some telephone books, results not what I expected.

I shot some personal defense ammo today. They all gave good penetration. What they didn't do was expand.
In order they are:
1. Regular 9mm slug which I didn't expect to expand. Fired from Kel-Tec PF9 into phone book. Penetrated about 9"
2. 9mm 124gr PMC Eldorado Star Fire. Fired from PF-9 into phone book from the bottom end. The bullet was fired horizontally into the pages. Penetrated about 9" (Also fired one directly at front of different book with 4" penetration and no expansion)
3. 357 150gr PMC Eldorado Star Fire. Fired from revolver into the bottom end of different phone book from one used with 9mm. Penetrated about 11"
4. 357 150 gr PMC Eldorado Star Fire. Fired straight down through 2" wood into 4" of earth.
5. 38 Special Federal 110 gr Hydra Shock fired from same 357 into bottom of phone book. Penetrated about 11" Since the pages were already ripped from the 357 that allowed easier travel and probably explains all the paper in the tip.

I'm guessing this would happen with most any personal defense rounds since this is paper and not gelatin or flesh and bone. But before performing my experiment I expected the self defense loads to expand even in paper. Apparently, the paper keeps the bullet too compressed to allow expansion. In case anyone is not familiar with what the Star Fire does in gelatin when fired from a PF9, it does expand. GoldenLoki.com


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Old 02-13-2010, 07:46 PM   #2
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very interesting, i never tried personnel defense founds in a phone book before, thanks for the pic and info!


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Old 02-14-2010, 11:04 AM   #3
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Were the phone books wet or dry when you did the test.
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Old 02-14-2010, 11:10 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iakobos View Post
I shot some personal defense ammo today. They all gave good penetration. What they didn't do was expand.
In order they are:
1. Regular 9mm slug which I didn't expect to expand. Fired from Kel-Tec PF9 into phone book. Penetrated about 9"
2. 9mm 124gr PMC Eldorado Star Fire. Fired from PF-9 into phone book from the bottom end. The bullet was fired horizontally into the pages. Penetrated about 9" (Also fired one directly at front of different book with 4" penetration and no expansion)
3. 357 150gr PMC Eldorado Star Fire. Fired from revolver into the bottom end of different phone book from one used with 9mm. Penetrated about 11"
4. 357 150 gr PMC Eldorado Star Fire. Fired straight down through 2" wood into 4" of earth.
5. 38 Special Federal 110 gr Hydra Shock fired from same 357 into bottom of phone book. Penetrated about 11" Since the pages were already ripped from the 357 that allowed easier travel and probably explains all the paper in the tip.

I'm guessing this would happen with most any personal defense rounds since this is paper and not gelatin or flesh and bone. But before performing my experiment I expected the self defense loads to expand even in paper. Apparently, the paper keeps the bullet too compressed to allow expansion. In case anyone is not familiar with what the Star Fire does in gelatin when fired from a PF9, it does expand. GoldenLoki.com
Those bullets functioned precisely as expected when striking a dry laminated surface. If you shoot into water or a water-based product, such as ballistic gel, jugs of water or even soaking wet phonebooks... they will expand.

The hollow-point edge acts as a hole punch as you can see by the paper wads at the tip. The perimeter of the paper holes keeps the bullet intact as they penetrated the phonebook.


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Old 02-14-2010, 11:34 AM   #5
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Try it again but soak the phonebooks in water over night first. Your results will be much different.
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Old 02-14-2010, 12:53 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by csaw44 View Post
Were the phone books wet or dry when you did the test.
They were dry, I didn't think about shooting them wet. Judging from spittinfire's response that's what I should have done.

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Indeed I am. James Taylor '93. How about yourself?

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Try it again but soak the phonebooks in water over night first. Your results will be much different.
I'll hunt down some more phone books. And give it another shot.
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Old 02-14-2010, 02:09 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iakobos View Post
They were dry, I didn't think about shooting them wet. Judging from spittinfire's response that's what I should have done.

Indeed I am. James Taylor '93. How about yourself?

I'll hunt down some more phone books. And give it another shot.
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Old 02-15-2010, 12:58 AM   #8
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Tie 3 strings around the books, then soak in 5 gal. buckets overnight.
Leave string on when shooting.
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Old 02-15-2010, 04:03 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iakobos View Post
I shot some personal defense ammo today. They all gave good penetration. What they didn't do was expand.
In order they are:
1. Regular 9mm slug which I didn't expect to expand. Fired from Kel-Tec PF9 into phone book. Penetrated about 9"
2. 9mm 124gr PMC Eldorado Star Fire. Fired from PF-9 into phone book from the bottom end. The bullet was fired horizontally into the pages. Penetrated about 9" (Also fired one directly at front of different book with 4" penetration and no expansion)
3. 357 150gr PMC Eldorado Star Fire. Fired from revolver into the bottom end of different phone book from one used with 9mm. Penetrated about 11"
4. 357 150 gr PMC Eldorado Star Fire. Fired straight down through 2" wood into 4" of earth.
5. 38 Special Federal 110 gr Hydra Shock fired from same 357 into bottom of phone book. Penetrated about 11" Since the pages were already ripped from the 357 that allowed easier travel and probably explains all the paper in the tip.

I'm guessing this would happen with most any personal defense rounds since this is paper and not gelatin or flesh and bone. But before performing my experiment I expected the self defense loads to expand even in paper. Apparently, the paper keeps the bullet too compressed to allow expansion. In case anyone is not familiar with what the Star Fire does in gelatin when fired from a PF9, it does expand. GoldenLoki.com
In 88 I fired a 110 grn .357 MAG JHP from a 6" 586 that traveled through 2-3 phone books and stopped at the back of the last one probably because it was supported by a wood board which was supported by a cinder block wall but it did expand and even partially fragmented pretty well.

Shorter BRL's will give less expansion but better penetration and if the round gets clogged up W/ material little to no expansion.

N.D

Last edited by N.D.; 02-15-2010 at 04:04 AM. Reason: Omission
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Old 02-15-2010, 03:12 PM   #10
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Hollow points work on hyrdaulic pressure. The fluid entering the point is normally water based. Water cannot be compressed. When additional fluid tries to enter the sides of the cavity give way allowing expansion.

The Hydra-shok bullet uses a tapered post to direct the forces outward and give reliable expansion.


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