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Old 06-06-2008, 05:39 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by billdeserthills View Post
Met a guy the other day, he feels quite differently about hollowpoints. Says they are the liberal's tool and that they were invented to make cops feel safe,
as there is no chance of them penetrating a bulletproof vest. Further, he insists that full metal jacket bullets are the only way to go. I don't know if it can be confirmed but this dude says there has never been a single documented case of overpenetration leading to the death of an innocent bystander. Really makes me think about ditching the defensive ammo altogether, now if only someone made good FMJ rounds.
even if you ignore the overpenetration issue there is a terminal ballistics issue. handgun rounds rely more on wound channel than rifle rounds do because they travel slower. i'll tell you right now (and i mentioned this another thread) there are hollow point rounds that cut right through certain ballistic vests.
you should ask this guy how he's gonna testify to the grand jury packed with liberals after he shoots someone. let me guess, he hasn't considered that has he.
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Old 06-06-2008, 04:59 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billdeserthills View Post
Met a guy the other day, he feels quite differently about hollowpoints. Says they are the liberal's tool and that they were invented to make cops feel safe,
as there is no chance of them penetrating a bulletproof vest. Further, he insists that full metal jacket bullets are the only way to go. I don't know if it can be confirmed but this dude says there has never been a single documented case of overpenetration leading to the death of an innocent bystander. Really makes me think about ditching the defensive ammo altogether, now if only someone made good FMJ rounds.
Want to take a few .45 ACP hollow points to a vest in the name of science? Let someone hit you with a few. Even if you don't drop dead, you still won't get back up.
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Old 06-06-2008, 05:29 PM   #23
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.32 ACP is only suitable for Deep Cover and 3rd gun applications, IMHO. .25 ACP is completely inadequate for self defense.

With that said, I saw a guy shot in the upper lip with a .25 ACP. Exit wound was under and behind the right ear. Bullet travelled under the skin and around the skull. Not lethal, but he was in so much pain, he was out of the fight.

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Old 06-06-2008, 05:55 PM   #24
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personally, if you shot me with a pellet gun i'd probably turn and run. but don't tell my friends that. LOL.
when it comes to deep consealment you get stuck between picking a hard hitting round or a gun that conseals easily. it's never an easy choice. when it comes to the smaller calibers i guess having a gun is better than none at all. i'd have to agree that .32 is probably the better choice in this matter.

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Old 06-07-2008, 08:06 PM   #25
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You put 7 or 8 rounds of ANYTHING inside someone and the fight will end with a dead attacker or at least a severely wounded and hurting one! Most shootings occur inside 7 yds. A .22 lr will kill someone at that range, and most .22's hold 10 rds.. I dare anyone out here to take 8-10 hits of .22lr HP ammo and come up fighting. If your fighting someone with body armor in the normal course of your day or nightime activities, your in the wrong place...unless your LE or military.

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Old 06-07-2008, 10:33 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Gerald Sykes View Post
for carring a gun on you , would a 32 cal. or a 25 cal.which would be the best to carry
either as a backup or emergency gun... heck, I carry a 22 lr 5 shot as my "backup." Far as primary, I'd carry neither one of those... I'd go with nothing lower than a 9mm in 124.

Now, if you find you can't shoot a 9mm for whatever reason and can hit with a 32 cal in center mass all day long, then go for the 32.

If you shoot a 45 and miss, the muzzle blast won't kill the BG.

Caliber does not mean sht if you can't shoot the gun worth a darn.... and have good follow up shots. I'd rather hit with a 22 than miss with a 45 anyday.

Although, If I were you, I'd rent a 9mm at a local range and run some hollow points through it... maybe a Glock 19... I'm guessing you would not think it is too bad to shoot.

I carry a glock 23 .40... I've been thinking of dropping down to a g19 9mm....
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Old 06-14-2008, 01:21 PM   #27
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As a primary? Neither! As a backup I've carried them all; I have, however, settled on the 32 acp.

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Old 06-15-2008, 04:42 AM   #28
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for self defense i wouldnt go smaller than a 9mm no bigger than a .45 for daily carry. home defense hell i would get like a lever action 45-70 500 grain lol

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Old 06-15-2008, 10:31 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billdeserthills View Post
Met a guy the other day, he feels quite differently about hollowpoints. Says they are the liberal's tool and that they were invented to make cops feel safe,
as there is no chance of them penetrating a bulletproof vest. Further, he insists that full metal jacket bullets are the only way to go. I don't know if it can be confirmed but this dude says there has never been a single documented case of overpenetration leading to the death of an innocent bystander. Really makes me think about ditching the defensive ammo altogether, now if only someone made good FMJ rounds.
Next time you meet this person tell him he is wrong concerning the reason for the birth of hollow points .

If you do a just a couple of web searches you will find that hollow points and the vest were virtually invented at the same time with the hollow points coming in a few years earlier than the vest .

Hollow points for Law enforcement began being excepted when Lee Jurras started the company called SuperVel with lighter bullets propelled at higher velocities .

The material for bullet proof vests or Kevlar was invented by Stephanie Kwolek at the DuPont science company in 1966. While experimenting with high performance chemical compounds .

The first Kevlar material to hit the market in the early 1970's was called Kevlar 29 and from then on it was being improved, and by 1988 the second generation of Kevlar material was called Kevlar 129.

Not only did hollow points predate the Vests so did ammunition that would penetrate them as a matter of fact those rounds existed for decades before the Vest .

If you recall Automobiles bodies used to be made of all metal . As far back as the 20's police needed round that would penetrate a car body or a criminal would be completely safe in a vehicle . If I recall correctly armor piercing rounds were invented way back then NOT recently to kill police with body armor as the Anti's would try to make you believe .

I can personally guaranty this is all true as my father grew up with our local Chief of police as such he often visited our home when I was a very small child . It wasn't uncommon for other officers to need to speak to him while visiting and they would also drop by .

Being interested in guns I was often showed a duty weapon after it was unloaded , I saw pointed armor piercing rounds "which was kept on the belt as a reload" as well as hollow points long before I saw a cop wearing a vest .
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Old 06-15-2008, 04:51 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billdeserthills View Post
Met a guy the other day, he feels quite differently about hollowpoints. Says they are the liberal's tool and that they were invented to make cops feel safe, as there is no chance of them penetrating a bulletproof vest.
Obviously your friend isn't from New Jersey! (Where criminals are forbidden to carry or use hollow points.)

Quote:
Further, he insists that full metal jacket bullets are the only way to go. I don't know if it can be confirmed but this dude says there has never been a single documented case of overpenetration leading to the death of an innocent bystander. Really makes me think about ditching the defensive ammo altogether, now if only someone made good FMJ rounds.
While I wouldn't go as far as to say that there is, 'no documented case' (I believe there are!) FMJ ball ammo remains the military's bullet-of-choice; and, I don't think the Hague protocols of 1899 have anything to do with it.

The military likes FMJ ball ammo because it has significantly greater, 'point impact', burrows deeper, breaks bone better, and frequently causes both entry and exit wounds. Two years ago we had a major criminal gunfight in a nearby town. The perp fired 25 times and wounded two officers with his pistol. Three police officers fired back 108 times; the perp was hit with 14 or 15 JHP pistol rounds without showing any significant effect; he remained on his feet and kept right on fighting.

It was a late arriving officer with a 5.56x45mm tactical rifle that finally took the perp off his feet with 2 or 3 rounds of, 'you know what'.

Hazleton Gunfight
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