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-   -   Private Sales of Firearm, sans FFL (http://www.firearmstalk.com/forums/f14/private-sales-firearm-sans-ffl-73581/)

BeyondTheBox 10-02-2012 07:37 PM

What's your guys' take on this?

I've recently read opinions and statutes on private sales out of state, however I've both given and sold some of my handguns to friends and family (in state) without any official transfer paperwork.

I'm just wondering if I've missed some possible legalities. I understand that, as far as the law is concerned, until I do so, the firearms are still considered mine. But I'll be honest, I'm not worried about any consequences from one being stolen and used in a crime. My friends and fam are responsible parties whom would absolutely file a report if lost/stolen, let alone there'd be nothing to convict on, with lack of motive and full alibi, I'm very confident there. So unless you can shed more insight there I'm assuming I'm good. If there's a flaw in my theory I'm open to ideas.

danf_fl 10-02-2012 07:49 PM

Transferring firearms between my siblings and I (they are residents of Wisconsin, I am of Florida), I've followed the guidelines and have gone through FFL's.

There are provisions in the GCA for some exceptions.

2. May I lawfully transfer a firearm to a friend who resides in a different State?
Under Federal law, an unlicensed individual is prohibited from transferring a firearm to an individual who does not reside in the State where the transferee resides. Generally, for a person to lawfully transfer a firearm to an unlicensed person who resides out of State, the firearm must be shipped to a Federal Firearms Licensee (FFL) within the recipient’s State of residence. He or she may then receive the firearm from the FFL upon completion of an ATF Form 4473 and a NICS background check. More information can be obtained on the ATF website at www.atf.gov and http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/unlicensed-persons.html. The GCA provides an exception from this prohibition for temporary loans or rentals of firearms for lawful sporting purposes. Thus, for example, a friend visiting you may borrow a firearm from you to go hunting. Another exception is provided for transfers of firearms to nonresidents to carry out a lawful bequest or acquisition by intestate succession. This exception would authorize the transfer of a firearm to a nonresident who inherits a firearm under the will of a decedent. See 18 U.S.C. 922(a)(5).
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/industry/0501-firearms-top-10-qas.pdf

bearrwe 10-02-2012 07:49 PM

Well there is the fact you just mentioned it on a public forum that is watched by gov agency.

mdauben 10-02-2012 07:50 PM

You might check your state laws but there is no federal requirement for paperwork or records on private party to private party transfers within the same state.

If you are transferring to a private party in a different state federal law is you must go through an FFL even if its a friend or relative.

orangello 10-02-2012 07:52 PM

I am a big fan of buying from a non-FFL and avoiding federal forms. I, thus far, have avoided buying from people with questionable methods of obtaining inventory.


Alibi-wise, could you prove where you were Sunday night from 11PM until 3AM Monday morning? I mean, beyond a statement from your spouse.



edit* D'oh, didn't see "in another state".

USEBOTHHANDS 10-02-2012 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mdauben (Post 961737)
You might check your state laws but there is no federal requirement for paperwork or records on private party to private party transfers within the same state.

If you are transferring to a private party in a different state federal law is you must go through an FFL even if its a friend or relative.


across state lines is an IMMEDIATE "INTERstate commerce" transaction and falls under federal government guidelines......sales or transfers must be made to an FFL within the state of the transferee and a form 4473 has to be completed.

BeyondTheBox 10-02-2012 08:08 PM

Sorry, I forgot to mention my friends and family are in state. That's why I said "however", just forgot to state it. Hahaha

My bad.

BeyondTheBox 10-02-2012 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by orangello
I am a big fan of buying from a non-FFL and avoiding federal forms. I, thus far, have avoided buying from people with questionable methods of obtaining inventory.

Alibi-wise, could you prove where you were Sunday night from 11PM until 3AM Monday morning? I mean, beyond a statement from your spouse.

I agree, avoidance of those pesky charges for using a card (delaer buy on broker site) or waiting for money orders to be delivered and shipping time is always good. Nothing better than immediate satisfaction.

You do bring up a good point, though some Sunday nights yes, I could. Without motive I wouldn't really need it, but I'm sure it would never get to that point.

Perhaps it would be a good idea to get a signed receipt on each sale. I keep records of the guns and their serial numbers electronically (pictures of), but a signed copy of purchase/sale might be good backup. Or just ask them to go to an FFL and do it all official like. I just don't like asking anything of people, ever.

Before ever purchasing a handgun I asked both my local FFL dealer and police department, both said, in the state of Oregon there's really only one official way to do so, otherwise it's perfectly legal to sell privately. But I'm now wondering how competent an answer that really is. What if I had a friend with a felony on their record I knew nothing of? Instances like that are what I'm mostly curious about.

orangello 10-02-2012 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BeyondTheBox (Post 961788)
Perhaps it would be a good idea to get a signed receipt on each sale. I keep records of the guns and their serial numbers electronically (pictures of), but a signed copy of purchase/sale might be good backup. Or just ask them to go to an FFL and do it all official like. I just don't like asking anything of people, ever.


What if I had a friend with a felony on their record I knew nothing of? Instances like that are what I'm mostly curious about.

I would prefer not to do any paperwork not required by law, but if the deal was good enough, a bill of sale wouldn't be unreasonable. When i bought my SKS from an individual, he did ask to see my driver's license to verify i was from an in-state address.

I doubt anyone could absolutely PROVE that you knew or didn't know your buddy had a felony (unless you were present or a co-defendant or something). I do think they could probably make a case on you if the buyer was wearing a "I love maple syrup" Tshirt and speaking mostly french and complaining of the heat and talking about last year's seal clubbing trip and such.

BeyondTheBox 10-02-2012 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by orangello

I would prefer not to do any paperwork not required by law, but if the deal was good enough, a bill of sale wouldn't be unreasonable. When i bought my SKS from an individual, he did ask to see my driver's license to verify i was from an in-state address.

I doubt anyone could absolutely PROVE that you knew or didn't know your buddy had a felony (unless you were present or a co-defendant or something). I do think they could probably make a case on you if the buyer was wearing a "I love maple syrup" Tshirt and speaking mostly french and complaining of the heat and talking about last year's seal clubbing trip and such.

Hahaha. No, it's quite literally my local and frequently visited friends and family, only the best of. I wasn't stating that I'd read about out of state law because it pertained to me, rather that I'd been reading the post from someone else on here whom was thinking about doing so to that 20y/o and it made me think more about my case where they were in state. Had it been something foreign I would've just chimed in on same thread already started.

I highly doubt my friends and fam were ever felons, with one exception, but it was a purchase for his cute little asian wife whom is definitely no felon. Hahaha

Thanks for the input fellas, puts my mind a little more at ease about the situation.


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