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Old 02-08-2009, 05:33 AM   #21
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Didn't read post # 14 huh?

Yea I read the post but it was dated 1958, much has changed since that thought 50 years ago.
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Old 02-08-2009, 05:47 AM   #22
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Say what you will but if you don't take the time to aquire the target you are truly spraying and praying. So ever pull of a trigger requires the gun owner to be responsible for the round. That is how I see it as regular guy, a guy that was a LEO for three years and a guy that was in the USMC for eight years.
What are you, stuck on stupid? Or do you just like saying spray n pray?

I'm not talking about every shot being a John F**kin' Wayne from the hip shot.

I'm talking about the BG being in-your-face, cut your liver out distance. How the hell are you going to acquire the target when you can take an alcohol level reading from his foul breath blowing in your face?

If your shooting stance is on your mind in this scenario, you will die! This drill must be practiced and become muscle memory. Face it, because it’s the most likely shooting incident you will encounter

Thank you for your service but I can only guess that your time spent was rather quiet.

Here’s rules 12 & 13 for a gun fight;
12. Have a plan.
13. Have a back-up plan, because the first one won't work. "No battle plan ever survives 10 seconds past first contact with an enemy."
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Old 02-08-2009, 07:55 AM   #23
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When I worked for the security company here in germany, we had our own indoor shooting range. That was cool. It was indoor and only for short distance shooting. Max distance was 8 meters I think.
So, there, although illegal here in germany, we practiced point shooting.

This point shooting, and this is a fact, is rerally only for pure short distance shooting. 5 meters and below that.
I never really got a hang of it.

But it is based on the muscle memory in the end, for it to work.
Grip, as in shooting using the sights, is most important, otherwise the round will go everywhere but in the target.

I never really liked it, but it works on short distance and, as mentioned above, is meant only for short distance and in emergancies, when you don`t have time to aquire the target using your sights.

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Old 02-08-2009, 09:29 AM   #24
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If you are really interested in point shooting you might check out some texts by advocates of point shooting. Anything by Col. Rex Applegate will probably give you a look at some of the earlier concepts behind point shooting.

I can also recommend Bullseyes Don't Shoot Back by Col. Rex Applegate & Michael Janich, as well as Martial Marksmanship by Andy Stanford & Michael Janich

My personal opinion is that sighted fire is superior, but close quarters will sometimes allow or even require the use of point shooting concepts. Just like sighted fire requires practice, so does point shooting. Once you have competent grip & trigger press you should be able to quickly acquire point shooting skills at close quarters distances (arms reach to about 5 yards would be my estimated guess).

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Old 02-08-2009, 02:28 PM   #25
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All we are going to do in this thread is argue our points, but nothing will come of it.............

For crying out loud, just do whatever you need to do to put those rounds "between the shirt pockets" of the BG and you'll be alright.
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Old 02-08-2009, 03:26 PM   #26
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Yea I read the post but it was dated 1958, much has changed since that thought 50 years ago.
And I still shoot a gun designed in the 1890's.
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Last edited by Dillinger; 02-08-2009 at 03:44 PM. Reason: Fixed it for you. :-)
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Old 02-08-2009, 04:18 PM   #27
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And this is why I said this was going to get messy. On a subject like this, we have people coming out of the wood work to share their "experiences".

There will NEVER be a concensus on this subject, and even the modern firearms masters can't agree on the issue at hand.

First off, let me say that I have studied the subject in passing, it's not something I have devoted a lot of time too, because I don't believe it's the best possible self defense plan to have.

Situational awareness should always put you in a position where you wouldn't let a bad guy get close enough that you would NEED to point shoot.

That said, every plan is just a list of sh!t that can, and will, go wrong long before you get to Step 4.

Now, to the discussion at hand.

Point Shooting has been taught to every Israeli Military Recruit for decades. I think everyone here will agree that if ANYONE has experience in close combat, it's the Israeli's. They also teach Krav Maga, which is one of the most deadly effective martial arts on the planet. They don't waste time with things that don't work.

In the Israeli Point Shooting your arm becomes a pivot at the elbow and that is all. You don't use your muscle group at the shoulder, the idea is that from the elbow down, you have one strong linear "pointer".

Try picking up a heavy olympic style weight plate, or a heavy book. Your hand can not close around it, so you form a sort of clam-shell, with all 4 fingers together on one side, and your thumb on the other side, pressing in with force to hold the item.

You can't "grab" it the way you would a milk jug or a rope.

In this "grip" your wrist is aligned with the bones in your forearm, locked strongly in place and your fingers and thumb are pointed straight away. Try it and you will see what I mean.

The Israeli method is exactly that, your grip on the weapon is the same as you normally use, your finger goes to the trigger because you are expecting to fire and your wrist is locked the same way, in linear alignment with your forearm. You bend at the elbow and "point" the weapon the same way you would point directions.

Doing this, my first rounds are always low, generally around the girdle area, but the follow up shots, due to recoil and arm control, always climb in a straight up fashion so that the next 3 or 4 rounds all find the sweet spot.

It's effective and it's simple. That said, I don't practice it as much as I should, I don't think I have done it in the last 5 or 6 range trips, merely because I don't like it.

I would prefer to make space using my strong, off hand if necessary( I am left handed and shoot right handed ) than I would try to rely on point shooting.

Now, if everyone can agree to disagree, I am not going to have to close this thread - but the constant back and forth about who has been shot at more times, and who's man hammer is bigger because of it, isn't what the discussion should be about.

Stick to the facts at hand please gentlemen -

JD

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Old 02-08-2009, 07:17 PM   #28
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Unless you have a BG ontop of you trying to eat your face, you should never shoot from the hip. In any situation if you take a target 20 feet away and just point your finger at it, then put your head down on your arm and follow the line of sight, you will have inevitably missed your target either completely or significantly enough that you just should have brought the gun to your eyes in the first place.

This is what they trained in the police academy when I went through it, and the logic still serves as accurate.

This is not to say that you cannot LEARN to point shoot, or that you cannot train muscle memory to enact some form of accuracy, but if you don't KNOW you can do it, you should never TRY to do it in a hurry.

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Old 02-08-2009, 08:29 PM   #29
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OK, I'm ready to put this issue to bed.

THREAD LOCK PLEASE?

I am an advocate of point shooting.

I am an advocate of practicing point shooting on each range visit. You only need to do one mag in two shot bursts. Only one paper target, any Police Silhouette Target (B-21, B-27), FBI, IDPA or IPSC Official Target that gives you plenty of paper real estate to walk rounds in.

The target should be hung at <2 meters (~5 foot) and low on the target rack. (Don’t go shooting the roof off the range!)

I am also of the belief that anyone that shoots a firearm from the hip A. @ > 2 meters or B. anything other than Cowboy Shooting IS A FOOL!

With that said, “I don't want to talk to you no more, you empty headed animal food trough wiper."

Oh yea, one more thing:

Be safe out there and please use you're most powerful weapon first, your brain!

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Old 02-09-2009, 12:35 AM   #30
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Hmm. Point shooting. I was an instructor for whats called EST or Engagement Skills Trainer for the Army. It's kind of a virtual simulator. Like a big Army Duck Hunt machine. We teach M-4/ M-16, 249s, 240s, M-9s and the like. Since I've moved to M-4 ranges helping teach soft skill MOS's how to shoot. In anycase we teach a lot of the same principles as the Isreali forces. I usually just call it the John Wayne method of shooting. Look. Point. Shoot. The only thing I can say about this for certain is that it takes practice, practice and then some more practice with practice on the side to be completely proficient with this type of shooting. With an M-4 I think it's a lot eaiser. We teach this method for clearing buildings because when you kick in a door you don't have time to look AIM and shoot.

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