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Old 10-19-2013, 05:33 PM   #31
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My point was there are two distinct and separate uses for a gun light and a handheld flashlight. Unless you can predict the future, there is no way to know when either will be needed. Therefore carrying both is not redundant. What you do personally is obviously up to you. But carrying both isn't redundant for most people.

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Old 10-19-2013, 05:48 PM   #32
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Oh no I'm not worried about what you choose to do or not do, you asked for a civilian reason and i explained why i have a couple.

I agree saying a gun MUST accept that light wasn't the best choice but it's not wrong to highly suggest a person gets one.

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Old 10-19-2013, 05:58 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeltaF
My point was there are two distinct and separate uses for a gun light and a handheld flashlight. Unless you can predict the future, there is no way to know when either will be needed. Therefore carrying both is not redundant. What you do personally is obviously up to you. But carrying both isn't redundant for most people.
I understand your point. Yes, there are two distinctly different uses and situations. Again, I don't see the need to keep a flashlight on me if i have one in my car or office desk or whatnot.

You're right, I can't predict the future.

But I still maintain that for me, in my bedroom, having a gun light when I already have a flashlight is simply a matter of convenience. They both go with me when I'm searching the house, and my house is small enough that I have faith I can hit what I'm aiming at with one hand, unless adrenaline or whatnot gets the better of me.

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Originally Posted by grandpubba
Oh no I'm not worried about what you choose to do or not do, you asked for a civilian reason and i explained why i have a couple. I agree saying a gun MUST accept that light wasn't the best choice but it's not wrong to highly suggest a person gets one.
Understood. And agreed.

Gentlemen, I'm done discussing this. This is one of those personal preference matters and I'm not trying to even convince anyone to do things my way. I was simply stating that for my purposes, my current life, the two things in question is redudant. I was also pointing out the stupidity of kbd's comment which basically implied that HIS way, with HIS chosen light, and HIS chosen sights are the only way to do things.

How about we all just go buy a Glock 19, too?

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Originally Posted by kbd512
Almost forgot, whatever pistol you choose should probably come with or accept aftermarket tritium sights and a SureFire X300. If it doesn't, it's probably not something you want to carry. On that note, always carry a small flashlight, folding knife, and cell phone with you. They're complementary tools.
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Old 10-19-2013, 07:53 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by JW357 View Post
That's sound reasoning, and I as a civilian will never have to be in that situation.
JW,

This may be hard for you to believe, but you don't always get to choose the situation you're in.

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Originally Posted by JW357 View Post
So I ask again, why do I, as a civilian, need a flashlight on my body when there is already one on my gun? Don't say because of car troubles. I could just keep the flashlight in the car and not have as much weight on my body.
As a civilian, you may face a situation where law enforcement can not respond in the amount of time you'd need them to respond in, which is why having some of the same tools they do is useful. Isn't that why a civilian would carry a pistol with them? I'm more than happy to let law enforcement do what they do, but completely relying on them isn't very practical.

I use my SureFire flashlight and pocket knife enough that I carry them on me everywhere I go without a second thought to it. The iPhone flashlight app is not nearly as bright as the SureFire. My wife has determined that she needs these things now for work and does the same. We both have cell phones on us all the time, even while sleeping, mostly for work.

The flashlights for the cars stay in the cars.

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Personally, I don't own a single gun light anyway. I understand the arguments for them, but I just choose to spend my hard earned money on other things (such as reloading supplies to shoot more, or food for my son, or diapers for my daughter, or gas for my car, or date nights occasionally with my wife).
Good for you. If you don't feel the need for one, then don't carry one. It leaves more available for the rest of us.

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Originally Posted by JW357 View Post
I don't have a CC permit in this communist state, so I don't carry anyway. I keep a couple loaded guns in a gun safe in my bedroom, and a shotgun in the closet. I have a flashlight within reach.
We generally keep our guns locked up when they're not on our person, but to each his own.

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And if I had a CC permit here, I would never carry a light of any sort on me during the day anyway. I don't leave my house at night usually, so it really isn't an issue.
Not everyone goes to sleep when the sun goes down. Again, good for you.

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The picture I'm trying to paint is that for me, in my situation and the way I choose (and am forced) to live my life, a light on my gun isn't necessary, let alone a high-end specific light that costs several hundred dollars. A flashlight on my body also isn't necessary, in most circumstances. Oh and by the way, my smart phone has a flashlight app on it, so there's triple redundancy, if I take your advice, kbd512 (gun light, flashlight, cell phone).
Can you even imagine the possibility that other people don't live their lives exactly like you do?

While making sure I have my children and wife in the same room in the dead of night, I don't want to have to search for them with the light attached to my sidearm for what should be obvious reasons.

My knife and pocket flashlight are tiny and weigh very little. My iPhone is heavier than the flashlight and knife. All of them see use at least once a day, if not multiple times per day, which is why I choose to carry them. The flashlight is attached to my keys.

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Yes batteries die. My phone is always charged fully every night. I keep a car charger in my car. I don't fault people for wanting to have a flashlight and a gunlight and a flashlight app and a laser on the gun and night sights and two back up guns and a bulletproof vest and a bayonet attachment on one of their backup pistols and a knife or three their body. I don't fault them at all. But telling someone they HAVE to buy a gun with a specific light is ignorant, arrogant, and plain stupid.
Just about every modern pistol and newer 1911 variants come with rails to mount a white light on. Why would you limit your options when you don't have to?

Tritium sights are pretty useful if you do any shooting at night, or at least they have been for me.

Just because you don't agree with something doesn't make it ignorant/arrogant/stupid, it's just not congruent with what goes on in your head. Try to conceive of the idea that not everyone else lives and works the same way you do.

SureFire flashlights and weapon lights are what I arrived at after using and breaking every other type of flashlight. Sometimes things get dropped. Maybe you've never done that, but I've dropped lots of flashlights and dunked a few. I drop my SureFires and don't worry about it and they keep doing what they were designed to do.
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Old 10-19-2013, 08:25 PM   #35
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Alright well I THOUGHT I was done talking about this but apparently you're misunderstanding me despite all my comments previous to yours. So here goes. I'll address the main points.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbd512
JW, This may be hard for you to believe, but you don't always get to choose the situation you're in. As a civilian, you may face a situation where law enforcement can not respond in the amount of time you'd need them to respond in, which is why having some of the same tools they do is useful. Isn't that why a civilian would carry a pistol with them? I'm more than happy to let law enforcement do what they do, but completely relying on them isn't very practical.
Understood, which is why I acknowledged earlier that there are different applications for them and I understand that. I merely stated having both of them on your body at the same time is redundant, especially if you have one in your car.

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Originally Posted by kbd512
I use my SureFire flashlight and pocket knife enough that I carry them on me everywhere I go without a second thought to it. The iPhone flashlight app is not nearly as bright as the SureFire.
Regarding the brightness thought. Another member posted not long ago that sometimes, in a darkened house, a light of too bright intensity (speaking on a gun) is a detriment to the home owner because it shines brightly off the walls if they are light colored, and thus could cause a mirror effect and possible blinding. I have no experience with this, just re-iterating someone's opinion that I read here.

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Originally Posted by kbd512
We generally keep our guns locked up when they're not on our person, but to each his own.
I do too. Notice I said shotgun. The thing is, though, I can't afford a large long-gun safe at the moment. I have five long-guns in my house, and all are kept out of reach of my daughter (my son is not important for this discussion at this time, as he isn't old enough to even walk yet). I cannot justify spending $600+ for a safe right now. I understand it might (MIGHT) protect the guns from theft. A determined thief will get into the safe regardless. Especially if its a cheaper one. If we're away on vacation, which literally has never happened since we've been married (almost three years now), then there is no one there to protect the house and all the guns will be gone. If I or my wife is home, which one of us is ALWAYS home at night, and someone breaks in, they won't have time to worry about where my long-guns are to steal because I believe they will be too worried about the shotgun or handgun pointing at them.

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Originally Posted by kbd512
Not everyone goes to sleep when the sun goes down. Again, good for you.
Well, I don't either. I usually go to sleep around 11pm (really need to stop doing that. I'm always tired at work). But the lights are always on in my house until we go to bed... So I really don't get your comment. Especially when you know I have a flashlight in my bedroom and several others throughout the house.

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Originally Posted by kbd512
Can you even imagine the possibility that other people don't live their lives exactly like you do?
Sure I can. I even said this is one of those situations that there is no wrong answer for, just like there is no right answer, which is what you implied by your original comment which started this whole discussion. Everyone's situation is different, and you would know I've stated that several times if you'd had bothered to read all my posts carefully. However, along the note of "can you even imagine the possibility that other people don't live their lives exactly like you do?," I will say that you could say the exact same thing about your telling people to not even consider a handgun unless it can take tritium sites and has a Surefire X300 (or whatever that light is called). To say Surefire is the only good light brand in the world is like saying Glock is the only good gun brand, or Chevy is the only car brand. It simply isn't true in today's day and age.

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Originally Posted by kbd512
Just about every modern pistol and newer 1911 variants come with rails to mount a white light on. Why would you limit your options when you don't have to?
What do rails have to do with anything? Who ever brought up whether or not rails were a good thing? I don't have a problem with rails. Just like I don't have a problem with NOT having rails. Because right now my rails don't get used anyway. So it doesn't matter to me if my guns have rails. I never even brought them up, so I don't know why you would. I'm not limiting myself unnecessarily. I have a flashlight next to my bedside gunsafe, and for me that is sufficient enough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbd512
Just because you don't agree with something doesn't make it ignorant/arrogant/stupid, it's just not congruent with what goes on in your head. Try to conceive of the idea that not everyone else lives and works the same way you do.
You're right about that first sentence. But what IS stupid or ignorant is thinking that there is only one good brand of lights or one good type of night sights out there. That's what I was getting at. Regarding your second sentence, again I stated several times that how people dress up or down their guns and gear doesn't matter at all to me. What matters is that we're all responsible gun owners and we support the 2nd Amendment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbd512
SureFire flashlights and weapon lights are what I arrived at after using and breaking every other type of flashlight. Sometimes things get dropped. Maybe you've never done that, but I've dropped lots of flashlights and dunked a few. I drop my SureFires and don't worry about it and they keep doing what they were designed to do.
I'm glad you found a brand that works for you. If you'd have included that in your original post we could probably have avoided this entire conversation. All you had to say was "My recommendation is to get a Surefire X300 because in my experience...." etc etc etc

Originally the way you worded it, it made it sound like don't even bother getting a gun if you're not going to attach that specific light, with those specific sights, and also with another flashlight and whatnot on your person. It came across as arrogant, or perhaps ignorant, depending on how you want to look at it.

So. Can I be done now??
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Old 10-19-2013, 08:37 PM   #36
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Regarding the brightness thought. Another member posted not long ago that sometimes, in a darkened house, a light of too bright intensity (speaking on a gun) is a detriment to the home owner because it shines brightly off the walls if they are light colored, and thus could cause a mirror effect and possible blinding. I have no experience with this, just re-iterating someone's opinion that I read here.
80 lumens for interior use is the maximum recommended white light brightness. Any more and the light reflecting off the walls burns off your rhodopsin to the point where it will take several minutes to recombine, leaving you night blind. Even 80 lumens off a bright white wall in a tight hallway can be too much for some people.

The idea behind a tactical light is being able to use it for a brief interval and turn it back off immediately to minimize the amount of time your position is made obvious to anyone else around you.

The iPhone light isn't QUITE bright enough to overcome a muzzle flash or penetrate to the other end of a dark room. But some of the sure fire lights are way too bright. Neither is ideal.
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Old 10-19-2013, 08:43 PM   #37
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80 lumens for interior use is the maximum recommended white light brightness. Any more and the light reflecting off the walls burns off your rhodopsin to the point where it will take several minutes to recombine, leaving you night blind. Even 80 lumens off a bright white wall in a tight hallway can be too much for some people.
Ah ha! I THOUGHT it was you who posted that.

If its true, and I really have no reason to believe it isn't (certainly makes sense to my non-scientific brain), then that certainly puts a damper in kbd's strategy of only using a 300 lumens light on his guns. At least it should.

Night blindness can literally be crippling to people who aren't used to it or prepared for it in these situations. The Corps trained us that the eyes take about 30 minutes to fully adapt to acceptable night vision. Bright lights like 300 lumens will certainly ruin night vision. And yes, humans actually do have a degree of night vision. You'd be surprised how well your eyes can see in pitch black (if you've let your eyes adapt to the darkness) in your own home, when you know exactly where everything is supposed to be.

All that being said, I still have a flashlight in my bedroom. And as I said, I think its 500 lumens. But you can click the button twice to dim the light. Not sure how many lumens it drops down to, but it certainly seems at least half as bright as when its on full power.
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Old 10-19-2013, 08:51 PM   #38
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And as I said, I think its 500 lumens. But you can click the button twice to dim the light. Not sure how many lumens it drops down to, but it certainly seems at least half as bright as when its on full power.
Ok I just looked it up. It is 375 lumens on the high setting, and 104 on the low setting. So, according to what DeltaF is saying, my flashlight is still too bright for use in the dead of night in my home. Hmmm.

Here's a link to my flashlight (it was free, rewards points from my credit card). Its a good flashlight, for what I need it for. Perhaps too good??


http://www.wayfair.com/Brinkmann-ArmorMax-3C-LED-Tactical-Flashlight-809-8523-0-BRK1194.html
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Old 10-19-2013, 09:02 PM   #39
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Ok I just looked it up. It is 375 lumens on the high setting, and 104 on the low setting. So, according to what DeltaF is saying, my flashlight is still too bright for use in the dead of night in my home. Hmmm. Here's a link to my flashlight (it was free, rewards points from my credit card). Its a good flashlight, for what I need it for. Perhaps too good?? http://www.wayfair.com/Brinkmann-ArmorMax-3C-LED-Tactical-Flashlight-809-8523-0-BRK1194.html
Now THERES a light for you! My AR light is 300 lumens because I am normally using it outside against animals rummaging through my trash. The dogs have learned that an opening door means its time to find somewhere else to be VERY fast so I need something that puts a beam out there.

It sucks indoors.
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Old 10-19-2013, 09:14 PM   #40
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I like the older X300 model (170 lumens) and the older E1B (110 lumens on the brightest setting).

The Titan is the model I was referring to that goes on my keychain. It's 70 or 80 lumens, I think.

All the newer model SureFire flashlights are far, far too bright for use indoors. You will flash blind yourself if you point it at a wall, assuming your walls are lightly colored the way most interior walls are.

The newer models range between 300 lumens and 500 lumens, all the way up to 800 lumens for some of the police flashlights. Most of those models are available with multiple output settings, but for some reason no genius working at SureFire thought it was important to have some sort of intermediate setting for the common handhelds that they sell.

So yes, even SureFire flashlights have their flaws but durability isn't one of them.

About once a month I drop my E1B on its bezel. I've had it for a few years now. It's not as pretty as it once was, but it still works.

I've tried all the cheaper flashlight brands because I'm always looking for a bargain. I've done the same thing with optics. Eventually my wife got tired of me spending money on things that I would inevitably break and told me that if I'm going to buy something like that, get the best that I can.

I've had enough one and done drops with other brands of flashlights that I don't bother with them anymore.

Nothing is unbreakable and I've broken the thin pyrex and lexan lenses on cheaper model SureFire handhelds (mostly plastic body flashlights). I've chipped but not broken any of the TIR lenses. I've chipped but not broken the aluminum body flashlights. I've never damaged a plastic body apart from running over one.

You can buy brand new SureFire flashlights for 50-70% of the retail price on eBay, GunBroker, Amazon, LA Police Gear, and a variety of other online shops.

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