OPEN CARRY-who REALLY does it? - Page 7
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Old 12-16-2012, 04:53 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by 7point62 View Post

Your Google Fu is probably fine but so few people open carry there's probably no reliable data either way.

Now before you start jumping all over me .....snip
As I said, I'm not looking for a flame war. I do ask that the derogatory talk stop though. I don't remember who said it, but I personally am neither a psycho, "off", looking for a confrontation, nor am I a street lawyer with a video camera looking for a harassment suit. I'm simply a man who carries in the method that is available to him for financial reasons. The crappy thing? If I didn't have Christmas breathing down my neck, I could have taken the courses required to get a conceal permit yesterday.

A lot of your argument depends on your location and attitude. I've yet to have the cops called, and very few people even take notice of my gun. Actually, the only people who visibly take any notice of my gun are those who want to talk guns!

And the tactical advantage argument can go both ways. While many love to say "Oh, you'll be the first one shot by the bad guys!!", I say, criminals are stupid and invariably attack people/places where they expect no resistance, often not even paying attention to the people in the room around them. A perfect example of this is to watch the video of the elderly man who opened up on a few thugs who tried to rob a computer center (I'm still trying to figure that one out. A computer center? Really?) In that scenario, not one of the thugs had any situational awareness. They went in with a "shock and awe" attitude, expecting to scare everyone into compliance, not paying attention to their surroundings, and the old man was able to get up out of his seat and approach the thugs before he opened fire. Now, he was carrying concealed. But he got up and charged the thugs before opening up.

No, I really don't think the average thug is professional enough for the tactical advantage to be negated that much by OC, and that's my personal opinion.

And some could say that if you're carrying concealed, you may have to make unnecessary movements to get to your gun, specifically drawing attention to yourself as a threat to the local punk ass thug's way of life, and it will simply slow you down to get to it.

That ^^^ is another "tactical advantage" argument that I think smells like fertilizer. For the same reason I stated above.
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Old 12-16-2012, 05:16 PM   #62
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Let me just say this, and then I'm dropping out of the argument altogether.

Please don't insult the individual. If insults need to happen, talk about their actions. None of you know your neighbors situation fully. Don't claim that all OC'ers are whack jobs, but by all means, point out messed up behaviors.

If you have a claim to make, back it up with evidence. This is simple debate etiquette. To say that "oh, well this will surely happen" with no evidence to support your claim, is pure speculation. Sure, there's nothing wrong with stating it as speculation, such as "this is what I think will happen", but don't state it as a fact without evidence, and be prepared to see evidence (or lack of it) that your idea may be a moot point.

I'll say again, I'm not pro OC. I'm pro self defense, pro life, if you will. I'll use the means available to defend myself.

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Old 12-16-2012, 06:57 PM   #63
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To each his own. If it works for you, it works. As you say we can speculate til we turn blue and it don't mean nuthin. I just don't think it'll ever be widely legalized so our arguments for and against are probably academic.

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Old 12-16-2012, 09:20 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by trip286 View Post
I ask, because that's an argument I see quite frequently, yet I don't ever remember hearing of it happening. Anywhere. Ever. Except with a cop, which, apparently, doesn't count according to the arguments in this thread.

I've googled it. Couldn't find any stories of anyone having their gun taken off their person while carrying on about their daily life, and having it used against them. None. At all. But my google fu is nothing special.
Yet to hear of one, but it just seems so likely that I stick to its point against OC simply due to logical probability. But that's just me and my choice.
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Old 12-18-2012, 04:17 AM   #65
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Now, I'm not trying to start a flame war.

I've been browsing google and talking to a couple of cops I know, 2 being friends (here in West Monroe), and one being my stepbrother (Texas), and none of them have even heard of it happening, but we all agree it's possible, and a definite risk.

According to the collective memories of the 4 of us, it seems you're infinitely more likely to get killed with your own gun during a home invasion where the perp may find your grandad's shotty in the closet, and "you", the happy homeowner, happens to walk in during the ransacking. Hmm.

Oh I know it's happened. It has to have happened, right? It's only feasible that it's had to have happened before, I won't deny that. I'm sure it's happened in the "Wild West" days, but I mean more modern times. Let's say, maybe since the 50's. But I've personally found no hard evidence of any reports of it happening, but like I said, I'm not quite google master.

The three cops also brought up another good point. Between them all, they have a total of over 60 years cumulative in law enforcement. More violent altercations than can be counted. More run ins with cracked out dope fiends than can be counted. More domestic assault cases worked than they could even imagine. Drunks. Disorderlies. DTP... The point brought up by my one friend, and collaborated by the other two... is that it's their job to go into messed up situations. And the three of them have had a BG attempt to snatch their gun a grand total of... 0 times. So... they intentionally put themselves at risk, and haven't had it happen.

My step brother also pointed out, that in his area, BG's seem to be more afraid of the LAC with a gun than they are the cops. His personal theory? It's a cop's job to bring them in alive if possible. LAC's aren't bound by the same constraints.

For the record, I'm actually not pro OC. I do OC right now, because I'm very pro self defense, and I don't have the money for a CCW permit and all the strings it comes attached to. As soon as I'm able to rectify that little situation, no one will likely ever see my gun again.

But that's not the point. I actually take offense to some of you speaking so derogatorily of OC'ers. I really don't have words for it. I think some of you have become biased based on the youtube asshats who like to run around with intentionally "scary" looking rifles and such, while running a video camera and arguing with police. That's not the purpose of OC. Those of you who keep hammering on it, seem to think that's the purpose of everyone who carries openly (just based on what I've seen here, I'm not a mind reader). But again, that's not what it's about.

OC is, especially particularly in my case, about having your gun on you. It should never be done to prove a point. And if there's no ulterior motive, and the risk is so miniscule that someone will "spur of the moment" grab your gun and start shooting... Why get so upset?

I'll go on to say this too. I've never heard of anyone intent on a shooting spree actually going to their targeted location unarmed with the intent to just take someone else's gun to commit their atrocities. I really think the "someone will grab it" argument is almost totally unfounded as a likely scenario.
I am only upset with people who place themselves and others in danger by their actions!
And that is what those civilians do when they carry a firearm in the open in public, especially if it is a crowded environment. Your friends and relatives who are in LE will tell you the same. It would be better and safer for you to carry concealed even without a permit then to carry open!
The advise I give here comes from 30+ years in LE in CO, AK, and AL and I was carrying a CW for several years as a civilian and in the military before that.
It just defies common sense and good judgment to care in the open when you do not absolutely have to!!!!
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Old 12-18-2012, 04:22 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by JimRau View Post
I am only upset with people who place themselves and others in danger by their actions!
And that is what those civilians do when they carry a firearm in the open in public, especially if it is a crowded environment. Your friends and relatives who are in LE will tell you the same. It would be better and safer for you to carry concealed even without a permit then to carry open!
The advise I give here comes from 30+ years in LE in CO, AK, and AL and I was carrying a CW for several years as a civilian and in the military before that.
It just defies common sense and good judgment to care in the open when you do not absolutely have to!!!!
Well then all you cops better stop carrying in the open. By the way police are civilians. You aren't military.
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Old 12-18-2012, 06:37 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by JimRau View Post

I am only upset with people who place themselves and others in danger by their actions!
And that is what those civilians do when they carry a firearm in the open in public, especially if it is a crowded environment. Your friends and relatives who are in LE will tell you the same. It would be better and safer for you to carry concealed even without a permit then to carry open!
The advise I give here comes from 30+ years in LE in CO, AK, and AL and I was carrying a CW for several years as a civilian and in the military before that.
It just defies common sense and good judgment to care in the open when you do not absolutely have to!!!!
First off... What this guy said \|/
Oh, but wait, you ARE prior military. Sorry.

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Well then all you cops better stop carrying in the open. By the way police are civilians. You aren't military.

Also, Jim, since you believe it's such a danger, then maybe you have heard of a commonality of people getting their guns snatched? I extend the invitation to you as well to produce any evidence you can that it is a clear and present danger. REAL evidence. Not speculation. Now, as I have willingly said, over...and over...and over... I agree it's a risk. But to put a perspective to it, I believe it's about as much of a risk as someone just opening fire in McDonalds and shooting you while your carrying concealed before you get a chance to draw. Get struck by lightning much?

And by the way, I, personally, am not a civilian. I obviously can't say the same for all who OC (if I did it would just be a lie anyway), but my personal situational awareness and training are likely much more extensive than a great portion of currently active LEOs. The same rules apply to me, sure. But I have much more experience playing the game than the average Joe.

And, not to be rude, but your 30 years in LE means less to me than the 60 combined years of LEOs that I know intimately, one of whom I've actually traded babysitting duties with regularly, and the other one's Dad has been schtupping my dear mother for about 15 years. Come on. Think I'm gonna throw what they say out the window because you disagree? My opinion is often swayed. My good friend Vikingdad just did that on another thread, swayed my opinion that is. But it takes a better argument than that.
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Old 12-20-2012, 03:26 AM   #68
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Actually I would like to see all the cops carry concealed but then all of you who REQUIRE a visible presents would have a hissy fit.
I guess when people say common sense is dead they are right, at least reading this attempt to compare LEO's and the military to civilians!!!

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Old 12-20-2012, 05:11 AM   #69
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Actually I would like to see all the cops carry concealed but then all of you who REQUIRE a visible presents would have a hissy fit.
I guess when people say common sense is dead they are right, at least reading this attempt to compare LEO's and the military to civilians!!!
Well obviously many plain clothes cops and UC conceal. But how do you expect a regular patrolman to effectively carry a tool of his trade concealed when he's going to need a duty belt for all the other gear he has to carry on the job, such as radio, cuffs, taser, spray, baton, and all the rest? Would you like to see all cops go plain clothes in unmarked vehicles? Who's demanding a visible presence?

Are you even reading? You're not, are you? I think you're trolling. Insinuating that people have no common sense and must be of a lesser intelligence than yourself, yet you aren't producing any hard evidence to support any of your claims, and then trying to run the debate in a circle.
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Old 12-20-2012, 06:19 AM   #70
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I have posted this in another thread. We have a neighborhood watch. We often open carry at all times of day and night. We want potential burglars to know there is an armed patrol out and about at any time. For over 20 years our strategy has worked quite well. Other areas have a lot of property crimes. In fact, there are enough property crimes in the county to require a full page for the weekly rag to report all of them. Yet in our area property crimes are non existent.

Unless you are making a statement, open carry is just acting for trouble. We meet with a deputy every month. We all have business cards from several deputies in the event a state trooper or other member of law enforcement takes our actions in the wrong way.

We get constant lectures that the weapons are to remain holstered. We are the eyes and ears of law enforcement. If we see any suspicious activity dial 911 and move to a safe location.

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