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Old 04-05-2013, 03:39 AM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orangello

U.S. soldiers already carry one juiced up .22; why stick them with one for a handgun too? What are we worried about an invasion of Korean squirrels?

I still have a cz-52, kinda the FN57 or its day.
Hey Orangello,

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Old 04-05-2013, 03:49 AM   #82
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Hey Orangello,
^^^^^^^Gello I elect this for your new avatar.
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Old 04-05-2013, 04:06 AM   #83
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^^^^^^^Gello I elect this for your new avatar.
I second the motion....
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Old 04-05-2013, 04:08 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by kryptar19 View Post
^^^^^^^Gello I elect this for your new avatar.
2nd that recommendation - he will love it !
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Old 04-05-2013, 04:11 AM   #85
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I wish they'd adopt the Hk45c across the board but it'll never happen because of cost. They should stick with the M9. They just work.

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Old 04-05-2013, 04:11 AM   #86
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Or maybe this one? Although I do like the first best!!



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This is cute...
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Old 04-05-2013, 03:26 PM   #87
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Regardless of the bitter tears wept by the Acolytes of "Goofy Jeffie" the .45-70, and the .45ACP are gone forever.

The 9MM will be around for a long time, and when it goes, it will be replaced by something like the Five-seveN.

We won't go backwards.

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Old 04-05-2013, 05:15 PM   #88
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The .45 ACP was not a particularly special cartridge, although many will argue the point. The military did away with it for general issue use because there were no significant advantages over 9MM for the majority of shooters who are hard pressed to hit a dinner plate at 15 yards with a good 9MM pistol. A hot loaded 9MM cartridge from a 5 inch barrel is equivalent to .45 ACP with the same barrel length. We have .45 Super now, but that's not gonna work very well for recruits who have issues shooting a 9MM accurately.

The 9MM will always penetrate better than .45 ACP and the larger cartridges generally mean lower capacity and more recoil in weapons of comparable size and weight.

I think it's instructive that the Europeans and Russians all use a 9MM cartridge of one flavor or another. Both have tried all manner of wonky cartridge and pistol design in an attempt to improve pistol performance and they always come back to 9MM.

As reliable and powerful as modern military carbines are, they're really a specialty or last resort defense weapon. I think the military has wasted enough money "testing" new pistol designs. There's just not going to be a quantum leap in lethality, usability, or reliability from one design to the next.

If it were up to me, I'd just issue Glock 17's or S&W M&P 9's and call it a day instead of wasting anymore taxpayer money on testing things that have already been exhaustively tested. The M&P has better ergonomics so the choice is pretty easy. The Beretta is not qualitatively better than either of the aforementioned firearms, weighs more, and holds fewer cartridges. The Beretta isn't a bad pistol, it just has extraneous controls and less than optimal ergonomics.

If someone designed a pistol with an internal slide lock and magazine release, that'd be ideal to my way of thinking. If there was some way to have magazines automatically eject after the last round was fired, that'd be what I want. You have two things to focus on at that point, sight picture and trigger control. Slamming the magazine in should cause the slide to go forward. There should be an internal button in the butt that you can push with your thumb to release the magazine, if absolutely necessary. The butt hole on the Glock would finally have a purpose. The operator should only have to pull the trigger and load magazines. No thinking, no manual of arms with multiple ways to load the pistol, multiple "safety" conditions (or as I call it, multiple ways to prevent you from using the pistol), no external controls of any kind apart from the trigger; A pistol designed specifically for non-diagnostic weapons handling.

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Old 04-05-2013, 07:59 PM   #89
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We could debate, and probably will, debate this ad infinitum. In Elmer Keith's bio, he clearly states the 9mm lacks the ability to even put down a woodchuck w one round, often requiring multiple hits.

The 9mm requires expansion for effective terminal performance and while they have made improvements over the years - in FMJ - it lacks stopping power.

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Old 04-05-2013, 10:44 PM   #90
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We could debate, and probably will, debate this ad infinitum. In Elmer Keith's bio, he clearly states the 9mm lacks the ability to even put down a woodchuck w one round, often requiring multiple hits.
All that proves is that so called experts talk c**p at times. Lots of things need multiple hits from a handgun round to put them down. Apart from the .45 of course one hit anywhere in the body are even a near miss will drop a individual. The SAS used 9MM here for years very few terrorists walked away from a encounter with the SAS. Then again what would they know.

PS They were happy to use multiple hits to get the job done. Quote. He was pursued and finally caught up with on Smith Dorrien Avenue, close by a large beech tree where he was shot between 16 and 18 times.

McCann was shot five times, Farrell eight times, and Savage between 16 and 18 times. All three were subsequently found to be unarmed and without any kind of remote trigger. Components of a bomb, including 64 kg of Semtex, were later found by the Spanish police in a car in Marbella, 74 kilometres (46 mi) away in Spain, identified by keys found in Farrell's handbag.
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