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Old 09-22-2008, 03:58 AM   #21
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Defender , do you understand that Kimbers sales has a great deal to do with the fact that they have a excelent marketing and sales team and stratagy .

In speaking to several dealers I have been told Kimbers Master Dealer program is setup to provide a higher profit margin for the FFL's than other brands for those willing to pushing them.
Hate to break it to you, but there are a number of firearms manufacturers who offer "Master Dealer" programs with bigger discounts for big orders.

The bottom line is, if the guns aren't any good, the public won't buy them. The dealer profit margin is irrelevant.

Kimber rules the 1911 sales world because they make a proven superior product. Taurus and Armscor are where they're at, because they offer an unproven, mediocre product.

Taurus has been around for decades. If they were a good gun, they'd be selling a lot more, and high-level pistol competitors and law enforcement organizations would be using them.

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The Taurus PT 1911 has only been available for about a year and already the quality is such that the street price for them has risen almost $100 and the demand so high for the full sized version that they have had to delay the production of the Commander sized weapon indefinately.
^What a load of garbage!

The price of ALMOST ALL guns are going up, regardless of brand, because tens of thousands of people are buying guns in fear of Obama getting elected, who will enact stringent new gun control laws with the help of the Democrat-controlled U.S. Congress.

Sales at gun stores and gun shows are booming, thus prices are going up, regardless of brand.

MANY different guns by MANY different manufacturers are currently unavailable, because there is such a high demand for them. Even a lot of major gun dealers can't get the Ruger LCP right now, and Ruger is an estimated EIGHTY THOUSAND guns BEHIND in their production.

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The Taurus 1911's are made with forged frame and slides which alone has erned them a great deal of respect in the market.
In your previous post, you claimed forged metal isn't any better than cast, and now you've definitely changed your tune.

Funny, but after over twenty years of doing gun shows, I don't see any real "respect" for Taurus and Armscor. High-level shooting competitors won't touch either brand with a ten-foot pole. There's probably not a world-class shooter in the country who uses either brand, because people in the firearms world who know their stuff, are fully aware that both Taurus and Armscor are very mediocre in their overall construction and performance.

They're mediocre budget guns for people who can't afford high quality guns like Kimber.


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In a few more years when they have brought out a few different models in various sizes Kimber may be nothing more than a over priced thing of the past .
Keep on dreaming!

Taurus has been around for decades, and has never been more than a mediocre quality gun geared toward people who aren't very knowledgeable about handguns, and who aren't able or willing to spend more for a high quality pistol like Kimber.

LAPD SWAT, the LAPD Special Investigation Section, the U.S. Marine Corps Special Operations Command, and the USA Shooting Rapid Fire Pistol Team---have all extensively tested and selected Kimber as their 1911 of choice.

Virtually no law enforcement or military unit in the country issues garbage guns like the Taurus and Armscor.
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Old 09-22-2008, 06:02 AM   #22
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They're mediocre budget guns for people who can't afford high quality guns like Kimber.
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Virtually no law enforcement or military unit in the country issues garbage guns like the Taurus and Armscor.
First they're mediocre then garbage in a few paragraphs huh ?

Lets see what a few Kimber owners at 1911org have to say about Their HIGH QUALITY Kimber guns .

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Follow-up New Ultra Carry II

I wanted to let you know how the next 200 rounds of Winchester (white box 100 count) 230 FMJ performed. I was not too pleased with the results. I experienced FTF jambs, at least that is what they appeared to be. Every other magazine experienced a jamb with the 4th or 5th round out of the magazine.
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Howdy,
My new Ultra did the same thing. I had a armorer look at it and he said 4 words. Send it back now.
There was serious scraping of the top rails by the sharp undersides of the barrel, even peeling back strips of aluminum. It's still back there at Kimber. Lord knows for how long. Good luck.
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New guy with new Pro Crimson Carry 2

Hi Guys,
I picked up one of these yesterday and took it to the range today to see how it would shoot. Here is how things went.....

1) I thought the laser in the Crimson grip failed on the first shot..... I cleaned the lens with the included swabs and that cleared up the laser.

2) I fired roughly 175 rounds and towards the end I have several FTRTB's, 1 FTF, and 1 event of the slide locking open with 3 rounds left in the mag. I can say the gun was getting pretty dirty by that time and is not "broken in" according to the manual yet. Should I let that go unless it continues? By the way, I was shooting Remington UMC 230gr. FMJ's today

3) The gun consistently shoots about 1-2 inches right and 1-2 inches low at 25 feet, but I may have Kimber or a local smith put Tritium sights on it. Either way can the new sights be shimmed, adjusted, etc to correct for any discrepancy between POA and POI?

I REALLY enjoy shooting this gun and it will be my primary CC weapon once the bugs are worked out.
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My SIS Custom had premature slide lock backs and went full-auto, new, out of the box. While Kimber did take it back for repairs at their expense, a higher end brand, at twice the price, would have put more time & expense into thoroughly testing the gun prior to shipment. Kimber probably doesn't test & inspect to this extent, but then again, look at the price difference.
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-1 Kimber Customer Service

I own three Kimber's a Raptor Ultra, Tactical Pro and a tactical ultra. I have had zero issues with the pro and the raptor but I have had ftf and fte since day one with the Tactical ultra (external ex) so I called Kimber and Dennis said send it in. July 14 arrived at Kimber they said three weeks because they needed to replace slide (I thought great service) Called today 4 weeks later and was told 7-10 more Biz days I should have my gun

Should it take 6 weeks to replace a slide?

Very disappointed in Kimber

Get's worse after posting this I called Kimber back and asked who was incharge of CS was told Ann I talked with her and she told me I should have never been given a repair timeline that it takes what it takes.

I asked her since I was told this morning 7-10 more days if I have not heard anything in two weeks should I call back and was told NO that they will call me when it's ready not to bother them... Bother them?

I hate to say it but all these poor reports about Kimber I read on here and never thought anything about maybe all true and I doubt I buy another Kimber

I will post when I get the gun back and give ya a total time for the repair and if it was worth it
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I spoke too soon today my wife called and said a package came for me so I drove home and sure enough a nice box with my Kimber in it. They replaced the slide, new mag, polished the feed ramp it looked great.

Took it to the range and in the first fifty I had 4 FTF and 6 FTRTB so I stopped and cleaned the Gun and fired another fifty rounds 3 FTF and 6 FTRTB so I came home and called Kimber back the guy was super nice and I asked him since it was a new slide should it require a break-in he said about 100 rounds
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Pro CDP II returned for the last time

The Pro CDP II that I bought new the end of last year (took delivery first week of Jan: Calif laws) has been returned and it wont be coming back. 1125 rounds later and it still wasn't right. It was a handgun that started misfeeding with the very first magazine and pretty much kept it up for it's tenure in my gun safe, along with some new issues thrown in for good measure.

So the store where I bought the Kimber realized that the gun was a lemon and took it back and gave me credit for the purchase. I used that credit to buy another pistol, which, as you can imagine, was not a Kimber.

Too bad, because it is a great looking 1911 and felt right in the hand. Shot very good as well, when I wasn't clearing jams or pushing the slide into place.

Some of the things I experienced with this gun:

stovepipes
FTRB
slide lockback with rounds remaining in the magazine
misfeeds when clean
misfeeds when dirty
misfeeds with 8 different brands of ammunition
misfeeds with three different bullet styles
misfeeds with three different magazines
two trips back to the factory
custom smithing by the repair shop (there wasn't much left to polish)
replacement parts sent to me from Kimber to address an issue (didn't solve the problem)
grip screws loosening
inability to use as a carry weapon due to reliability
denting ejected brass (this issue arrived in time for the last 200 rounds)

I wish I could have been one to sing praises with this pistol, but I couldn't and I'm happy it's no longer mine. Since I didn't buy another Kimber, I don't expect to be posting much on this forum.

Good luck with your pistols and I'm pleased the situation with this Kimber have finally been resolved to my satisfaction. I just wish it didn't take 8 1/2 months and a lot of frustration.
There's lots more where those came from .

Sounds like a real High Quality gun Defender .

Glad I was so poor I bought a Charles Daly/Armscor garbage gun that hasn't malfunctioned once , I wouldn't know what to do with a High Quality weapon like a Kimber , Except maybe throw it in the river .
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Old 09-22-2008, 01:31 PM   #23
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Old 09-22-2008, 08:30 PM   #24
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^

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Sorry JD .

My point being Kimber is just a production gun that doesn't deserve to be put on a pedestal of being called "High quality" at the expense of the imports being called Mediocre and Garbage . Most of the price difference is due to the differences in labor costs and some people can't seem to understand price doesn't always equal quality .

They have and do let guns out the door that they shouldn't have just like any other mass production company of anything .

If a person wants truely High quality then they need a custom shop that pays attention to detail every step of the process be it a gun or furniture maker .

Slips in their QC is what caused Colt's downfall and the rise of Kimber and there's no reason the same thing can't be done to Kimber by some up and coming 1911 maker in the future , and the future may have already arrived .
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Old 09-22-2008, 08:34 PM   #25
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Sorry JD .

My point being Kimber is just a production gun that doesn't deserve to be put on a pedestal of being called "High quality" at the expense of the imports being called Mediocre and Garbage . Most of the price difference is due to the differences in labor costs and some people can't seem to understand price doesn't always equal quality .

.
No Problem BigO - Just in case anyone were to stop by and see their quotes on a board they didn't write for. Merely "C" the collective "A".

As for your thoughts, I would agree. I do feel that Kimber is turning out a good product, but they have also had Q & A problems on some weapons, just like any production house has.

Taurus has had them, and is working on regaining their market share.

Springfield has had them and are working through their issues.

There are even people that poo-poo my beloved Nighthawks.

However, the one thing to realize is that if you own ANY 1911 - it's better than anything else out there.

JD
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Old 09-22-2008, 10:36 PM   #26
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First they're mediocre then garbage in a few paragraphs huh ?

Lets see what a few Kimber owners at 1911org have to say about Their HIGH QUALITY Kimber guns .















There's lots more where those came from .

Sounds like a real High Quality gun Defender .

Glad I was so poor I bought a Charles Daly/Armscor garbage gun that hasn't malfunctioned once , I wouldn't know what to do with a High Quality weapon like a Kimber , Except maybe throw it in the river .
So 7 bad guns out of hundreds of thousands makes them crap?

I've got closed to 20k rounds through my Compact II and the only problems that it has exhibited has been at the hands of an experienced shooter. It has never malfuctioned with me shooting it, even with Kimber mags.
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Old 09-22-2008, 10:49 PM   #27
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Properly maintained, most any 1911 style pistol will work without any big problems.

You'll have to go out and do some window shopping, feel the pistols out yourself, and make your decision. The 1911 design is great, even the "cheap"
variants will give you good reliability. I have friends that own Llamas, and Norincos that haven't given them any problems at all.

The 1911 that you pick up, and makes you go "Damn, that's a nice gun", is most likely the one that's good for you.

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Old 09-23-2008, 01:42 AM   #28
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So 7 bad guns out of hundreds of thousands makes them crap?

I've got closed to 20k rounds through my Compact II and the only problems that it has exhibited has been at the hands of an experienced shooter. It has never malfuctioned with me shooting it, even with Kimber mags.
I never said they were crap nor did I use a single derogatory term in regards to Kimber such as "Crap , Garbage , junk or even mediocre" the worst thing I said in regards to them is they are overpriced .

As a matter of fact if you read my posts in the thread I complimented them by saying they have an excellent sales/marketing department and that when they started out they offered a lower priced yet Superior product to that of Colt .

Maybe it's just me but I would have thought a moderators questions/ comments would be a little more accurate than that , like JD's are as I thought I made my thoughts perfectly clear in post #24 of the thread .
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Old 09-23-2008, 02:39 AM   #29
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myself I have owned at least a dozen Springfield Armory 1911s and they can have issues I have never had to send one back, I have owned one Kimber 1911 in a 38 Super it was a nice gun, but I have always gone back for a SA, 2 wks ago just got a loaded 45 SA, so that proves I seem to go back to SA

It is hard to decide on your first 1911 go by how it feels to you in your hand

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Old 10-16-2008, 08:15 AM   #30
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So 7 bad guns out of hundreds of thousands makes them crap?

I've got closed to 20k rounds through my Compact II and the only problems that it has exhibited has been at the hands of an experienced shooter. It has never malfuctioned with me shooting it, even with Kimber mags.
You nailed it, Matt.

And Kimber-haters have been known to make phony forum posts, ranting about all the alleged "problems" they've been having with their Kimber, and they've never owned a Kimber in their life.

Kimber's quality is LIGHT YEARS above garbage guns like Armscor and Taurus. You can't BS most American gun owners. Kimber DOMINATES the 1911 market because they produce a proven superior product.

If Kimber's were the "defective dogs" the jealous Kimber-haters claim they are, the American public would've figured it out years ago and dropped them like hot rocks. The fact that Kimber dominates the 1911 market year after year, even at a considerably higher price point than garbage guns like Armscor and Taurus, is clear proof of Kimber's high quality.

If the garbage guns were really just as good as Kimber, everybody would save a few hundred bucks and buy the cheapos. Instead, they very willingly spend hundreds of dollars more, knowing they're going to get an excellent 1911 that's well worth the extra money.
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