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Looking at getting an m1911


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Old 09-18-2008, 08:47 PM   #11
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Good choice. The Kimber is a very dependable firearm. Good luck with it.
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Old 09-19-2008, 07:30 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by matt g View Post
If I were going to buy another 1911, I would seriously consider another Kimber, even before other, more high dollar brands.
If you can't afford a Wilson or Baer, but want something better than a Taurus or Rock Island, you can't go wrong with a Kimber.
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Old 09-19-2008, 08:55 PM   #13
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If you can't afford a Wilson or Baer, but want something better than a Taurus or Rock Island, you can't go wrong with a Kimber.
Hmm I have a Midsized "4 inch barrel" Charles Daly EMS "which is made by Armscor/RIA" that hasn't jammed and is as accurate as hell .

So explain please whats better about a higher priced gun ? Other than a bit more accuracy , because yes I have shot some of the finest 1911's ever made "Pachmayr , Yost and Clark creations" .

Does spending $200-2,000 more for the gun make the bullets bigger or faster and more effective if I have to use it for self defense or is that more of the load you fire in the gun ?
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Old 09-19-2008, 10:25 PM   #14
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Hmm I have a Midsized "4 inch barrel" Charles Daly EMS "which is made by Armscor/RIA" that hasn't jammed and is as accurate as hell.
^A very common logical fallacy amongst owners of mediocre weapons. "Mine hasn't jammed, therefore all of them must be super-reliable".

Unfortunately, MANY Rock Islands and Tauruses do jam, as I've personally witnessed at the large private outdoor range I'm a member of. They also have higher rates of weapons having to be returned for service because of malfunctions, defects etc.

And sorry, but "accurate as hell" isn't very convincing. Give us specifics, like group sizes, range the group was fired at, etc. Actual videos of you shooting those groups would make it more believable.

Some Wilson 1911 models are MANUFACTURER GUARANTEED to shoot 1-inch groups at 25 yards. Did you get that same guarantee from Armscor/RIA/Daly? Didn't think so.

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So explain please whats better about a higher priced gun?
Besides tritium night sights; hand-checkered rosewood grips, two-tone matte black and silver finish; 7075-T7 aluminum frame; slide machined from solid stainless steel and given a non-reflecting satin finish; carry bevel treatment to eliminate sharp edges and corners for an easier and more reliable draw; match grade barrel and chamber; polished breech face; lowered and flared ejection port; beveled magazine well; extended magazine release button; extended ambidextrous thumb safety; and the match grade premium aluminum trigger on my Kimber CDP II----I can't think of a single thing!

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Does spending $200-2,000 more for the gun make the bullets bigger or faster and more effective if I have to use it for self defense or is that more of the load you fire in the gun ?
The extra money ensures that I have a gun that will draw, shoot and reload noticeably faster than yours; and my gun will have significantly greater reliability and durability.

Legendary professional shooters like Rob Leatham and Todd Jarrett wouldn't dream of entering a high-level competition with a mediocre "box stock" pistol like Armscor/RIA/Daly or Taurus. They would be soundly defeated.

It would be similar to Jeff Gordon entering a NASCAR race with a completely stock Chevy Malibu off your local Chevy dealer's showroom floor.

Just like professional race drivers spend lots of money modifying their cars for greater performance, professional shooters spend lots of money modifying their pistols for greater performance.

When my life is on the line, I want a "high performance" pistol that will get the job done faster and more reliably, in a greater variety of situations---than a mediocre RIA or Taurus ever will.
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Old 09-19-2008, 11:10 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Defender View Post
Some Wilson 1911 models are MANUFACTURER GUARANTEED to shoot 1-inch groups at 25 yards. Did you get that same guarantee from Armscor/RIA/Daly? Didn't think so.
It's 1 1/2 at 25 yards and back when I bought my Kimber, all of their pistols came with that same guarantee. At the time, all Wilsons came with it too. I didn't know that they had started to limit it to only a few products.

I just couldn't see spending more than I did because the amount of tuning between a high end 1911 and the Kimbers makes a very small difference in shooting.
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Old 09-20-2008, 03:27 AM   #16
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It's 1 1/2 at 25 yards and back when I bought my Kimber, all of their pistols came with that same guarantee. At the time, all Wilsons came with it too. I didn't know that they had started to limit it to only a few products.
You are incorrect.

Most of the Wilson custom 1911's at the link below are guaranteed ONE INCH at 25 yards. You can verify that for yourself by clicking on the picture of each weapon:

http://www.wilsoncombat.com/handgun-index.asp

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I just couldn't see spending more than I did because the amount of tuning between a high end 1911 and the Kimbers makes a very small difference in shooting.
If you had bothered to even read my previous post, you would know that I was comparing MY Kimber CDP II to another member's Armscor/RIA/Daly 1911.

So how you came to the grossly mistaken conclusion that I was somehow attacking Kimber, I simply don't know.
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Old 09-20-2008, 03:21 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matt g View Post
It's 1 1/2 at 25 yards and back when I bought my Kimber, all of their pistols came with that same guarantee.
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Originally Posted by Defender View Post
You are incorrect.

Most of the Wilson custom 1911's at the link below are guaranteed ONE INCH at 25 yards. You can verify that for yourself by clicking on the picture of each weapon:

http://www.wilsoncombat.com/handgun-index.asp
Actually, you are both right. Wilson Combat offers pistols that come with both a 1 inch and a 1.5 inch guarantee. Most of their full size guns come with a 1 inch, their 4" models come with 1.5 inch.

As with most products in the "custom" field - you are getting what you are paying for at the time of purchase.

Wilson Combat makes a great weapon. They also know it and charge accordingly.

I stand by my previous statements on the topic:

For a bare bones, good quality, CNC produced and warrantied 1911 - Taurus would be my choice.

For the most complete, well built, semi production scale 1911 it would be Kimber. If I had to recommend one company for a loved one to purchase their only weapon, Kimber would be my suggestion.

Outside of that, in the true custom builds, well, those that know me know what I ended up with.

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Old 09-20-2008, 10:31 PM   #18
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Just so you and everyone else understands Defender this is intended as a discussion not a fight .

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Unfortunately, MANY Rock Islands and Tauruses do jam, as I've personally witnessed at the large private outdoor range I'm a member of. They also have higher rates of weapons having to be returned for service because of malfunctions, defects etc.
I can believe that is true but then Armscor is fairly new to the 1911 game in comparison to even Kimber and I would like to remind you of the fact that even Kimber took a big stumble when they introduced their Series II weapons with the external extractors and damaged their reputation in the market . Armscor has made huge strides in quality in recent years as has Taurus .

Also the whole being returned for service thing is also effected by all of the reputable gun shops that have gone out of business in the last few decades .

In the past if a gun had a simple malfunction like failure to return to battery which is caused by an improperly tuned extractor owners would just drop them off at a local shop and pay $25 or so for a simple repair . A repair that by the way Bill Wilson himself says many brands of factory guns need because many of the manufactures don't tune them correctly prior to being sold .

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A very common logical fallacy amongst owners of mediocre weapons. "Mine hasn't jammed, therefore all of them must be super-reliable".
Another common fallacy is just because you've seen a few examples of malfunctioning guns of a certain brand is that they are all inferior junk .

Spend some time on 1911.org and read the reviews of even high dollar guns that malfunction out of the box .

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Legendary professional shooters like Rob Leatham and Todd Jarrett wouldn't dream of entering a high-level competition with a mediocre "box stock" pistol like Armscor/RIA/Daly or Taurus. They would be soundly defeated.
First you're insinuating the gun makes the shooter with that statement and it does not .

Do you think those guys got all of the big sponsors and THEN proved they were a world class shooter or do you think they had to prove their ability before being approached by companies like Colt , S&W and Springfield ?

Fact is those guys are the best of the best who fire close to or above 100 thousand rounds a year and have been for years I doubt that if they simply had a reliable and reasonably accurate gun of any brand finding a person to "Soundly defeat" them in a stock class would be a difficult proposition .

Second they don't shoot a "Box stock" anything in competition they have competed in the unlimited class of the competitions that I have watched on television . Their guns all come out of the custom shops with all the bells and whistles and I doubt any of them would select those competition guns as a home/carry/CCW defense weapon as it would be a liability rather than a compliment .

You think like many in that you assume that you always get back the equal value in performance of what you put out in monetary value .

If that were always true Kimber wouldn't be the company it is today as when they started out they offered a product superior to Colt in quality at a lower price at the time when Colts QC had slipped to being dismal .

Many have an ingrained prejudice of foreign guns and don't even understand much like the auto industry even many American guns use foreign made components .

Another commonly held misconception is that Forged metal is always Superior to Cast and they don't understand Ruger Pioneered Cast decades ago in the firearms industry and their guns are thought of as being of considerable strength and quality .

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The extra money ensures that I have a gun that will draw, shoot and reload noticeably faster than yours; and my gun will have significantly greater reliability and durability.
That is just an example of false pride in what you own as everything listed is more of a shooters skill that any feature of the gun and I don't notice any significant difference in how fast I "Or the owner of the Yost" could fire my Daly compared to that of a full blown Yost converted 1911 and it had a value of over 5X what I paid for mine .

and then this

Quote:
When my life is on the line, I want a "high performance" pistol that will get the job done faster and more reliably, in a greater variety of situations---than a mediocre RIA or Taurus ever will.
Well that's nice and you're welcome to feel that way of course but if the high dollar guns were 100% necessary allot of the cops and service men would be in big trouble carrying stock guns by the millions in their holsters and into combat around the globe .

Need I remind you the 1911 the military carried for decades had none of the "Extras" you list for your Kimber CDP II and they did just fine for decades and just a FYI the Taurus and RIA's/Daly's do come with those features or at least many of them .
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Old 09-21-2008, 11:51 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by BigO01 View Post
I can believe that is true but then Armscor is fairly new to the 1911 game in comparison to even Kimber and I would like to remind you of the fact that even Kimber took a big stumble when they introduced their Series II weapons with the external extractors and damaged their reputation in the market. Armscor has made huge strides in quality in recent years as has Taurus.
Your egregious inaccuracies and argumentive fallacies continue unabated.

Just because some Kimber's had extractor problems, does NOT mean that Armscor or Taurus have "just as good" overall quality and performance.

Even Ferrari turns out an OCCASIONAL lemon car, yet I wouldn't be so silly as to claim that my under $20,000 Chevy (which has never had a single problem) is "just as good" a car as a $200,000 Ferrari.

Also, Kimber's reputation wasn't damaged NEARLY as much as you think. They STILL sell more 1911's than any manufacturer in the world, INCLUDING Springfield. At the 2007 IDPA National Championships, there were more competitors using Kimber than any other brand. Almost nobody was using Armscor or Taurus, because they know they simply can't win with mediocre pistols.
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Old 09-22-2008, 02:42 AM   #20
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Also, Kimber's reputation wasn't damaged NEARLY as much as you think. They STILL sell more 1911's than any manufacturer in the world, INCLUDING Springfield.
Defender , do you understand that Kimbers sales has a great deal to do with the fact that they have a excelent marketing and sales team and stratagy .

In speaking to several dealers I have been told Kimbers Master Dealer program is setup to provide a higher profit margin for the FFL's than other brands for those willing to pushing them .

The Taurus PT 1911 has only been available for about a year and already the quality is such that the street price for them has risen almost $100 and the demand so high for the full sized version that they have had to delay the production of the Commander sized weapon indefinately .

The Taurus 1911's are made with forged frame and slides which alone has erned them a great deal of respect in the market .

In a few more years when they have brought out a few different models in various sizes Kimber may be nothing more than a over priced thing of the past .
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