On learning to shoot........ - Page 3
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Old 03-15-2013, 01:38 AM   #21
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I've indeed seen a "target dot" on a deer. I visualize just where the heart is located and aim there.

Bob Wright

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Old 03-16-2013, 12:15 PM   #22
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O.K. Bob,....stick a bright Orange "dot" on a 3' pce of paper and shoot a group.Then,do the same thing with no dot.Which group is going to be bigger?Want another?Put up five target dots in a row,equally spaced and center'd on sheet of paper.....shoot them.Next,put the target dots on the back of the paper and shoot.You know where they are......why is it easier to hit the ones you can see?

The point I was "trying" to make was,hunting is a little different than paper punching,that's all.Jagermeister brings up an excellent point as well....that of moving targets.

In 3D archery theres no dots.There are these fairly faint lines moulded into animal target's body.In our class(traditional),where no bino's and no sights being allowed,we have to just "know" where the arrow needs to go(anatomically correct kill/score zones).Very deep subject....Zen and the arts is a wonderful approach to shooting.It has been part of archery for Ion's of time.Only in the last hundred or so has it been applied to firearms(give or take a few years).

JMO but,having come from an archery background,WRT Zen....modern firearm shooters are leaving a metric ton of info on the table in their quest.

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Old 03-16-2013, 03:22 PM   #23
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That's y I think it's important to shoot as in an NRA Qualification course of fire, with the right targets, scoring them honestly. Maybe even competing for fun. Makes the WORLD of difference. Cops, for example, miss their targets in a fire fight 50% of the time at six feet -- SIX FEET!

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Old 03-16-2013, 04:12 PM   #24
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Hockalouis :
This subject of the percentage of misses by cops comes up often . It often involves factors beyond their control. Obviously, cops shoot under the worst conditions : 1) While being shot at . 2) After someone else is already shooting at them . 3) Dim light . 4) Against multiple opponents . 5) While already wounded . 6) With distractions . 7 ) With innocent bystanders in danger . 8) Against moving targets . 9) When it isn't clear just who is a good guy and who isn't ; confusing circumstances in general . 10) While operating a radio, after running, while shouting commands, while holding a night stick etc. ; doing two things at once .
All of the above can lead to misses . Other, more controllable, factors that can contribute to low hit percentages are :
1) PPC training, which gives points for wild shots ; At 7 yards, if you aim for the middle and hit the shoulder, you still get some points and if you aim for the head and hit the abdomen, you get points too . Poor shooters can think they shoot better than they really do .
2) The " spray and pray " tactic. It appears that, despite their training, some cops reason that if they fire enough wild shots fast enough, they'll hit the target at least once and that is usually correct .
3) Statistical anomolies : If you counted the possibly 10,000 rounds fired at Christopher Dorner or the same number fired at the MOVE group, the hit percentages would be down into fractions of a percent . 40 Or so shots were fired at Amadou Diallo but only 19 hit him but I doubt all of the officers were aiming carefully .
4) Misplaced trust in point shooting .

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Old 03-16-2013, 06:09 PM   #25
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Civilians in similar defensive shootings are seven (7) times more likely to hit their targets than police.

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Old 03-16-2013, 06:57 PM   #26
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Hockalouis :
I'm not so sure the defensive shootings by citizens are similar to police shootings . I doubt they are .
I imagine that significant numbers of citizen shootings involve shooting an intruder in the house, including boyfriends and husbands shot in self-defense . That implies being certain who the bad guy is, single attacker, short range, often an unarmed attacker, an attacker who is surprised that the victim has a gun and fights back.

Maybe it is an attacker who is not determined to harm the house-holder, such as a burglar seeking property but putting the victim in fear for his life just by being there .

On the street, the civilian probably has the advantage of knowing something is wrong ahead of time . By contrast, the cop's first clue may come when a motorist he pulls over points a gun at him .
I wonder how many civilans using shotguns were counted in your statistic, since it is much easier to hit with a long gun at close range than a pistol. Presumably, almost all police defensive shootings involve pistols .

Statistics can be tricky and misleading . For example, GOA's Larry Pratt, just for fun, "proved" via stats that gun laws prevent scaffolding accidents ; he compared the number of such accidents in Japan with the United States .

Conclusion : I think it is safe to say that a trained police officer who re-qualifies yearly or semi-yearly and has shot under timed conditions from various positions is better prepared than the average civilian . Civilian competitive shooters are another matter entirely .

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Old 03-16-2013, 08:10 PM   #27
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Rentacop - I agree with almost everything you said above, except the part about qualifications. I'm a fairly new shooter and was talking with one of the range officers at my range who is recently retired LEO. He explained what their qualifications were, and they were a joke. They only had to land 60% of their shots on target, heck I can do what he was saying with almost no experience.

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Old 03-16-2013, 10:07 PM   #28
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kirbinster-
Qualification requirements vary and you are right that they tend to be easy to meet . That said, the police at least get familiar with shooting under timed conditions from various positions . Doing that regularly probably gives them an edge over the average civilian JMG ( "just my guess" ) .
There are some civilians who take shooting seriously and are ahead of most cops but there are also a few cops who are excellent shots .
Here is the current version of the ICE Course, used by FPS and federal contract guards :
Target: ICE QT
50 Rounds

Stage 1: 1.5 yards (6 rounds)
Strong hand only from the holster--using bent elbow position
1 round in 2 seconds, 2 rounds in 2 seconds, 3 rounds in 2 seconds

Stage 2: 3 yards (6 rounds)

3 rounds in 3 seconds, 3 rounds in 3 seconds

Stage 3: 7 yards (6 rounds)

failure drill from holster in 5 seconds, failure drill from high ready in 4 seconds

Stage 4: 7 yards (12 rounds)
one hand shooting--weak and strong hands
3 rounds 2 handed, three rounds strong handed in 10 seconds
Repeat with support hand

Stage 5: 15 yards (12 rounds)
2 handed shooting from the standing and kneeling positions
6 rounds standing 10 sec., kneel / tactical reload 5 sec., 6 rounds kneeling in 10 seconds . ( now broken up into 3 stages )

Stage 6: 25 yards (4 rounds)
cover barricade shooting to the right
Move to cover, 2 rounds standing, 2 rounds kneeling in 20 seconds
Reload. Retain empty magazine ( yes, I know it is stupid )

Stage 7: 15 yards (4 rounds)
cover barricade shooting to the left
Move to cover, 2 rounds standing, 2 rounds kneeling in 20 seconds

MAX score is 250..lowest is 200 (80%)
Any safety violation = disqualification
More than 2 shots after whistle= disqualification
Failure to follow instructions= disqualification
Both knees on floor during kneeling reloads and holstering .

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Old 03-16-2013, 10:09 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kirbinster
Rentacop - I agree with almost everything you said above, except the part about qualifications. I'm a fairly new shooter and was talking with one of the range officers at my range who is recently retired LEO. He explained what their qualifications were, and they were a joke. They only had to land 60% of their shots on target, heck I can do what he was saying with almost no experience.
Qualification standards vary greatly between different agencies. I've seen some "firearms instructors" simply hand officers a B27 target and send them to the firing line and tell them to just shoot all of the duty ammo they are carrying then pull down/throw away the target without bothering to score so the next guy in line can go.

In contrast, some instructors set up elaborate courses that include simulated room clearing, pop up/shoot no-shoot targets etc.

Departments with very relaxed standards open themselves up to a lot of civil liability and in our very litigious society it can cost them a lot of money. Of course nothing gets an administrators attention more than losing money so the more difficult courses are starting to become more commonplace.
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Old 03-16-2013, 10:14 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rentacop View Post
kirbinster-
Qualification requirements vary and you are right that they tend to be easy to meet . That said, the police at least get familiar with shooting under timed conditions from various positions . Doing that regularly probably gives them an edge over the average civilian JMG ( "just my guess" ) .
There are some civilians who take shooting seriously and are ahead of most cops but there are also a few cops who are excellent shots .
Here is the current version of the ICE Course, used by FPS and federal contract guards :
Target: ICE QT
50 Rounds

Stage 1: 1.5 yards (6 rounds)
Strong hand only from the holster--using bent elbow position
1 round in 2 seconds, 2 rounds in 2 seconds, 3 rounds in 2 seconds

Stage 2: 3 yards (6 rounds)

3 rounds in 3 seconds, 3 rounds in 3 seconds

Stage 3: 7 yards (6 rounds)

failure drill from holster in 5 seconds, failure drill from high ready in 4 seconds

Stage 4: 7 yards (12 rounds)
one hand shooting--weak and strong hands
3 rounds 2 handed, three rounds strong handed in 10 seconds
Repeat with support hand

Stage 5: 15 yards (12 rounds)
2 handed shooting from the standing and kneeling positions
6 rounds standing 10 sec., kneel / tactical reload 5 sec., 6 rounds kneeling in 10 seconds . ( now broken up into 3 stages )

Stage 6: 25 yards (4 rounds)
cover barricade shooting to the right
Move to cover, 2 rounds standing, 2 rounds kneeling in 20 seconds
Reload. Retain empty magazine ( yes, I know it is stupid )

Stage 7: 15 yards (4 rounds)
cover barricade shooting to the left
Move to cover, 2 rounds standing, 2 rounds kneeling in 20 seconds

MAX score is 250..lowest is 200 (80%)
Any safety violation = disqualification
More than 2 shots after whistle= disqualification
Failure to follow instructions= disqualification
Both knees on floor during kneeling reloads and holstering .
I am sure there are some in law enforcement that are very good, and others that are very bad - just like in anything else.

I am curious what you mean by emergency reload, I am not familiar with exactly what that means. I am surprised to see them shooting at 1.5 yards - heck at that distance they could just slap the badguy with the gun
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