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Old 06-22-2014, 10:10 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Overkill0084 View Post
Define OK.
I don't think the giant hole in his chest did him in. It was ultimately the gangrene from a crushed set of testes that finished him.
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Old 06-22-2014, 10:36 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Overkill0084 View Post
Define OK.
He probably just rubbed some dirt on it,,and walked it off...lol. That pic is photo shopped for sure..Iv'e seen an open chest cavity .
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Old 06-23-2014, 12:23 AM   #13
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The "kick to the testicles" analogy is just amateurish. You can crush a man's testicles between your foot and the pelvic bone? You are dreaming (or just suffering from delusions of grandeur). The pelvic bone is 3-5" inside the body and a significant amount of flesh exists in that area.

Let me try to explain why "OOO" Buckshot drops people so fast. As you pointed out, getting hit by 8 shots of .380 ACP does not drop people like that, but buck shot does.

The cumulitive effect does not come from 8 hits, it comes from 8 hits at the SAME EXACT TIME! Your brain stem/cerebellum control all your autonomous bodily functions. When you are injured, the healing/repair process starts immediately. Platelets, white blood cells, etc are sent to the site of the damage. Veins and arteries in various places are constricted or dialated to adjust blood flow.

When multiple injuries occur at the same instant, the brain cannot immediately determine which ones are more seriouos than others. To help the basal functions deal with the situation more efficiently, the uppper functions must be put on pause. The person is rendered unconcious almost instantly. This is a function of the brain telling the conscious brain to "go to sleep, I'm too busy to deal with you right now."

Machine gun fire does not have this effect. Multiple hits from a single shooter does not have this effect. Double taps do not have this effect. Multiple shooters hitting at the same time DOES have this effect. I have seen several videos of LE shootings where 2-3 officers are shooting at the same time. The shootee tends to drop. Watch a video of a firing squad execution. They condemned drops and does not twitch. They are rendered unconscious INSTANTLY.

The only "magic" here is in the brain of the recipient of the shots
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Old 06-23-2014, 04:26 AM   #14
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Dont look at the picture if you are squeamish.
Too late, I looked.
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Old 06-23-2014, 02:45 PM   #15
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Is this a 'sucking chest wound' or a 'chest wound that SUCKS'!!!
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Old 06-23-2014, 02:56 PM   #16
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Seriously, one of the things I see seldom addressed when discussing gun shot wounds to human animals is the psychological affects. I have seen several people who received very minor wounds (both good guys and bad guys) just 'give up' because they were shot and just knew they were 'dead'. And on the flip side I have seen and read of just the opposite, people who have received fatal wounds who continue to fight effectively for several minutes.
There is only two ways to 'stop' the fight for sure (address previously):
1. A central nervous system hit. (upper spine and head)
2. Oxygen deprivation to the brain caused by a loss of blood pressure resulting from a massive blood loss. You do not need to loss 'all' of your blood for this to occur. When your reach the 20% loss you will start to go into 'shock'.
Not rocket science. But the problem which occurs when you try and intelligently discuss this is to many people rely on a VERY small sample and/or misinformation, which is very abundant in this 'information' world.
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Old 06-23-2014, 06:01 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Overkill0084 View Post
It's not just energy, velocity matters.
A .45-70 has a buttload (technical term) more energy than a .22 hornet. But it also has a relatively low velocity which doesn't lend itself to exploding critters with hydrostatic force in the same way as say, a .220 Swift. Even though their energy numbers are not all that far apart.
A 45/70 has over twice the energy of a 220 swift. I don't know how you all think there 22 cal cartridges can compare to cartridges that have been known to down the largest game on the planet. A 45/70 will certainly cause hydrostatic shock. A 220 swift it is debatable if it causes hydrostatic shock, even it does the amount of shock is negligible. You have to have a 243 or larger cartridge to produce significant amounts of hydrostatic shock. The next thing you know you will be claiming a 5.56x45 rivals a 30/06 because you like the 5.56 and want to make it look more impressive.

220 swift Avg Velocity 3845 Avg Energy 1674 ft lb
45/70 government avg velocity 2275 avg energy 3449 ft lb
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Old 06-23-2014, 07:09 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by John_Deer View Post
A 45/70 has over twice the energy of a 220 swift. I don't know how you all think there 22 cal cartridges can compare to cartridges that have been known to down the largest game on the planet. A 45/70 will certainly cause hydrostatic shock.
If people are going to argue that handguns don't generate enough velocity to create "real" hydrostatic shock, then the handgun-like velocities obtained from 45-70 are subject to the same arguments. Simply put, the effect that makes crap explode when hit is hydrostatic shock. Not to be confused with the hammer like knockdown of a big, heavy, but slow moving bullet.
I've heard it said that hydrostatic shock doesn't come into play until a bullet is approaching 3000 fps. Agree or disagree, I don' really care. If that is the case, even a 45-70 bullet pushed to an impressive 2200ish fps isn't going to generate the same hydrostatic effect as a much faster moving bullet. When one also factors the fall off in downrange velocities, the difference is even more drastic.

A 220 swift it is debatable if it causes hydrostatic shock, even it does the amount of shock is negligible. You have to have a 243 or larger cartridge to produce significant amounts of hydrostatic shock.
Define: significant.
I would argue that with game one would typically hunt with a .220 swift the hydrostatic effect is real and effective.


The next thing you know you will be claiming a 5.56x45 rivals a 30/06 because you like the 5.56 and want to make it look more impressive.
The next thing we know, you will make sense.

220 swift Avg Velocity 3845 Avg Energy 1674 ft lb
45/70 government avg velocity 2275 avg energy 3449 ft lb. You took the fastest possible 45-70 load as an example to discredit my assertion. Thanks for that, by the way.
Now, how about the rest?

Look again at the 45-70, the Black powder equivalent loads are not nearly that impressive:
.45-70
300 (Trapdoor) Lead PB 1,597 ft/s 1,699 ft·lbf
405 (Trapdoor) Lead FN
1,394 ft/s 1,748 ft·lbf
300 (Standard) JHP 2,069 ft/s 2,852 ft·lbf And the last one. Another outlier, modern load for modern guns, but I included it to be thorough. The trapdoor loads illustrate the point, however.
Hmm..
220 Swift

55 gr (4 g) SP 3,839 ft/s 1,800 ft·lbf
60 gr (4 g) SP 3,647 ft/s 1,772 ft·lbf
Say, when you look at all the numbers, my comparison isn't that crazy...now is it? I never meant it to be an absolute, matching all the numbers perfectly comparison. If that's the standard, fine, let's see your's?
Of course my comparison was Apples vs. Oranges for a reason. While generating numbers that aren't that aren't really all that far apart (Unless one only grabs the extremes), the two cartridges do their work in completely different manners.
I stand by that original point.
If it makes everyone feel better, I will concede that if one were to dig deeper into the ballistics tables, there are closer matches. Happy now? Since the post in question was intended to illustrate a broader point and not as a Masters Thesis on hydrostatic shock, I would ask that some latitude be given.

Considering you've posted such pearls as:
Quote:
If you have a cartridge with a bullet of the same weight that makes the same velocity the chamber pressure is the same.
and
Quote:
If a handgun could create this kind of damage you couldn't hang on to it.
I'm not entirely certain I can take your scientific critiques overly seriously.
http://www.firearmstalk.com/forums/f30/p-does-matter-108014/
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Last edited by Overkill0084; 06-24-2014 at 04:23 PM.
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Old 06-23-2014, 07:35 PM   #19
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Old 06-23-2014, 07:47 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John_Deer View Post
A 45/70 has over twice the energy of a 220 swift. I don't know how you all think there 22 cal cartridges can compare to cartridges that have been known to down the largest game on the planet. A 45/70 will certainly cause hydrostatic shock. A 220 swift it is debatable if it causes hydrostatic shock, even it does the amount of shock is negligible. You have to have a 243 or larger cartridge to produce significant amounts of hydrostatic shock. The next thing you know you will be claiming a 5.56x45 rivals a 30/06 because you like the 5.56 and want to make it look more impressive.

220 swift Avg Velocity 3845 Avg Energy 1674 ft lb
45/70 government avg velocity 2275 avg energy 3449 ft lb
i'd like to see your source or proof that it takes at least a 243 or larger to produce significant amounts of hydrstatic shock.

IMO, a 220 Swift would kill an animal just like a 45/70 would, if proper bullets and shot placement were used. but granted, the larger the animal, the larger the caliber i would wnat to use.
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