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-   -   if shock "doesn't exist", (as many claim) (http://www.firearmstalk.com/forums/f14/if-shock-doesnt-exist-many-claim-108078/)

uanda 06-22-2014 03:55 PM

if shock "doesn't exist", (as many claim)
 
then WHY is a 000 buck blast any more effective than a magful of 380's, hmm? We all know that the 12 ga blast IS more effective, but it CAN'T be due to blood loss or loss of organ function, cause those things don't take effect instantly, but the buck blast DOES (almost always, but not quite).

If it takes blood loss or loss of a vital organ to make men stop, why does a solid kick to the jewels put you on the ground, hmm? There's no blood loss, no vital organ damage, but you're still lying there. I'll be happy to kick you there to prove this point, if you really want to dispute it. :-) My front snapkick still breaks (with the grain) pine 2 x 12's. ( held at groin height).

Many have been "brushed" (in a manner of speaking) in the groin, and "think" that they've been kicked in the gonads. However, a proper strike will require testicle removal, because they'll be completely crushed, and gangrene infection from the destroyed tissues will probably kill you. They'll get smashed between your pelvic bone and the "ball" of my foot. Might as well be a hammer and anvil, for all the "give" inherrent in this strike.


The issue with handgun ammo is that typical loads aint GOT enough energy to cause much (if any) shock and the jhp's typically don't expand in flesh (proven on animals). Care to make some stupid claim that animal tissue and blood is somehow different than human tissue and blood? :-)

When you get up around .22 Hornet rifle impact power (ie, 700 +ft lbs) you can definitely see more effect on critters than when you shoot them with 230 gr .45 jhp's (from a commander).

Shoobee 06-22-2014 04:10 PM

1 Attachment(s)
This is your second question which exhibits that you are new to all this and have no idea about the manner of death in killing.

The modern JHP bullets impart a fair amount of damage on impact by expanding to about 1 inch. The 9mm's and 45ACP's are about equal in this respect.

For them, the manner of death depends on what you actually hit.

The best current example is Trayvon Martin, having been shot in the heart by George Zimmerman. It took Martin several seconds to die. And he lived long enough to utter "you shot me!" with expletives to some effect.

It would require a perfect head shot or neck shot to get a faster response for incapacitation, and even then death itself would take longer.

A head shot through the eye or nose channels would have the immediate effect of the victim falling down and flopping around, due to severe nerve damage. The victim would still require a longer time to die however -- witness the JFK assassination by Lee Harvey Oswald.

A neck shot that penetrates the spinal cord would also drop the victim immediately, only there would then be no flopping around. In these cases bleeding would require much longer for the victim to die. And if you somehow missed all the arteries and big vessels, then paralysis rather than death at all might be the final result.

Manner of death is cause either by brain trauma, or spinal trauma, or heart trauma, or else by bleeding.

Bleeding takes a long long time to cause death. People have a lot of blood in them, about a full gallon. And the only way to drain all the blood out of the brain quickly is to slice somebody's throat with a sharp knife, like OJ Simpson did with Nicole Brown and Ronald Goldman. A bullet would NOT cause that kind of bleeding.

A heart shot would cut off blood flow to the brain almost immediately, however the brain has about a 15 second supply of blood still in it.

If someone shot you through the heart, you would still have enough time to shoot them back about 15 times before you collapsed and died, as long as you stayed focused and did not panic.

A liver shot or pancreas shot to the gut would also cause death, but it would take a lot longer -- this is a very slow kill -- witness Jack Rubenstein's shooting of Lee Harvey Oswald.

Shot from a shotgun shell at close range causes very severe damage, and a fairly large wound, which also results is sever bleeding.

But for hydrostatic shock on impact you would need to use a 308 rifle or larger. And the magnum rifles work even better, like a charm!

therewolf 06-22-2014 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by uanda (Post 1594016)
then WHY is a 000 buck blast any more effective than a magful of 380's, hmm?

Because it's a larger blast, and all the projectiles hit the

animal all at once. It's cumulative effect, not "shock".


Quote:

Originally Posted by uanda (Post 1594016)

when you shoot them with 230 gr .45 jhp's (from a commander).

The 230 gr 45ACP is actually a slower, less powerful

round, I've done my own ballistics tests to confirm this. But the size of the

round, combined with the slower speed, makes it a very effective man

stopper.


But what's your point OP? And why are you comparing apples to oranges,

ballistically?

Point6liter 06-22-2014 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by therewolf (Post 1594161)
Because it's a larger blast, and all the projectiles hit the

animal all at once. It's cumulative effect, not "shock".




The 230 gr 45ACP is actually a slower, less powerful

round, I've done my own ballistics tests to confirm this. But the size of the

round, combined with the slower speed, makes it a very effective man

stopper.


But what's your point OP? And why are you comparing apples to oranges,

ballistically?


And would the .45ACP's ballistics change if say a brigadier general, or a captain were to be the one pulling the trigger?

John_Deer 06-22-2014 08:57 PM

Here is why rifles incapacitate an attacker much faster than a handgun. How big of a rifle is debatable and would be another thread.

http://www.princeton.edu/~achaney/tmve/wiki100k/docs/Hydrostatic_shock.html

Overkill0084 06-22-2014 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by uanda (Post 1594016)
then WHY is a 000 buck blast any more effective than a magful of 380's, hmm? We all know that the 12 ga blast IS more effective, but it CAN'T be due to blood loss or loss of organ function, cause those things don't take effect instantly, but the buck blast DOES (almost always, but not quite).

Even if the total energy levels were equal, which is going to cause you the most damage, 10 hits with a flyswatter or one hit with a sledge hammer? Time is a big player. Force delivered intermittently over ten seconds is going to have different effects vs that delivered within 1/10,000th of a second.

If it takes blood loss or loss of a vital organ to make men stop, why does a solid kick to the jewels put you on the ground, hmm? There's no blood loss, no vital organ damage, but you're still lying there. I'll be happy to kick you there to prove this point, if you really want to dispute it. :-) My front snapkick still breaks (with the grain) pine 2 x 12's. ( held at groin height).

Because the jewels are sensitive! Duh.

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blunt_force_trauma

Many have been "brushed" (in a manner of speaking) in the groin, and "think" that they've been kicked in the gonads. However, a proper strike will require testicle removal, because they'll be completely crushed, and gangrene infection from the destroyed tissues will probably kill you. They'll get smashed between your pelvic bone and the "ball" of my foot. Might as well be a hammer and anvil, for all the "give" inherent in this strike.

Is there a question here? Or just an odd fixation on crushed gonads?
Perhaps it's an attempt at a humble brag about how dangerous you are when gonads need kicking and/or crushing?

The issue with handgun ammo is that typical loads aint GOT enough energy to cause much (if any) shock and the jhp's typically don't expand in flesh (proven on animals).
Which handgun ammo and which animal? I suspect that your assertion is based on old or simply plain incorrect info. I will continue to believe that .357 Mag 125 gr JHP ammo will expand if used within it's operational limits. I suspect more than a few others will as well. Hell there's a whole industry dedicated to the expanding bullet theory of operation. It would be nice if it wasn't based on a hoax. That said, I see an awful lot of gel testing that demonstrates provable expansion. Granted, while gel isn't the last word, it does allow for consistent, repeatable results. Whether it's a "human equivalent" is certainly debatable. Pigs would be better, but since pigs are getting expensive and shooting them full of lead is a waste of perfectly good pork chops, it will have to do.

Exit question: How much decomposition can take place before Zombies are no longer considered a viable test media?

Care to make some stupid claim that animal tissue and blood is somehow different than human tissue and blood? :-)
Challenge accepted!

I'm going out on a limb and say that my physiology is substantially different from that of a Cape Buffalo where energy requirements needed for lethal wounding are concerned.
The tissue itself might not be that different, but quantity matters. As does the amount of bone holding it together and the thickness of the hide surrounding it.

When you get up around .22 Hornet rifle impact power (ie, 700 +ft lbs) you can definitely see more effect on critters than when you shoot them with 230 gr .45 jhp's (from a commander).

It's not just energy, velocity matters.
A .45-70 has a buttload (technical term) more energy than a .22 hornet. But it also has a relatively low velocity which doesn't lend itself to exploding critters with hydrostatic force in the same way as say, a .220 Swift. Even though their energy numbers are not all that far apart.

.................

JTJ 06-22-2014 09:25 PM

Come on 1" expansion? A shotgun slug maybe but not a normal pistol round. 000 buck weighs 70 grains and there are 8 in a 2 3/4" 12 gauge and 10 in a mag @ 1200-1250 fps. Even with 00 buck you have a massive swarm of pellets hitting the target and they dont spread much at 7 yards and under. Dont look at the picture if you are squeamish.

(please do not post such pics)

rn-cindy 06-22-2014 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JTJ (Post 1594196)
Come on 1" expansion? A shotgun slug maybe but not a normal pistol round. 000 buck weighs 70 grains and there are 8 in a 2 3/4" 12 gauge and 10 in a mag @ 1200-1250 fps. Even with 00 buck you have a massive swarm of pellets hitting the target and they dont spread much at 7 yards and under. Dont look at the picture if you are squeamish.

Not much blood loss there...Hope he was ok...

Overkill0084 06-22-2014 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rn-cindy (Post 1594204)
Not much blood loss there...Hope he was ok...

Define OK.

danf_fl 06-22-2014 10:04 PM

I'm still curious on your credentials.


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