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-   -   Identifying old .38 with paper-wrapped cartridges (http://www.firearmstalk.com/forums/f14/identifying-old-38-paper-wrapped-cartridges-3431/)

Morgan 02-24-2008 07:58 PM

Identifying old .38 with paper-wrapped cartridges
 
My great-grandfather was the police chief in New Westminster, near Vancouver, Canada, in 1892 when he investigated a murder. I'm assembling a family letter about the case. The murder weapon was never found, but the bullet was a .38, possibly from a Colt and the gun was said to be "old" at the time. The man he arrested and who was later convicted of the crime had paper-wrapped cartridges for the weapon and caps to fire them. Does anybody know what model of gun this was, and where I might find a photo?

scoutman 02-25-2008 01:44 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Not enough information to really tell. If I was to make an educated guess, I would say an 1851 Navy Colt. Approximately 248,000 of these were produced by Colt from 1850 to 1873. They were widely used during the Civil War.


Some info from Wiki


Manufacturer: Colt Patent Firearms Manufacturing Company, Hartford, Conn,New York,NY and London England

Length Overall: 14 inches

Length Barrel: 7.5 inches

Caliber: .36

Velocity: Dependent upon ammunition selection. An 86 grain round ball (0.375 diameter) over 22-25 grains of fine black powder might range between 850-1,000+ feet per second, producing 137 ft·lbf (186 J) to 190 ft·lbf (260 J) of muzzle energy, roughly comparable to between a modern .32 ACP and a .38 Special

Capacity: Six

Dates of Manufacture: 1850-1873

Action type: single action

Ammunition: 1. Black Powder decanted into the front of the cylinder followed by round or conical lead bullets, percussion caps on cones at rear of cylinder.

2. Metallic foil or (more common) combustable nitrated paper cartridges containing powder and conical bullet loaded into the front of the cylinder chambers and initiated by a percussion cap. Bullet weights and powder charges were subject to wide variation.

Morgan 02-25-2008 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scoutman (Post 17298)
Not enough information to really tell. If I was to make an educated guess, I would say an 1851 Navy Colt. Approximately 248,000 of these were produced by Colt from 1850 to 1873. They were widely used during the Civil War.
...

Caliber: .36

...

2. Metallic foil or (more common) combustable nitrated paper cartridges containing powder and conical bullet loaded into the front of the cylinder chambers and initiated by a percussion cap. Bullet weights and powder charges were subject to wide variation.

Thank you so much for the help and the photo! The size seems consistent with the testimony of one of the witnesses.

Bearing in mind that guns were a normal part of life in 1892 New Westminster, the bullet was recovered from the victim's brain by an experienced doctor and the inquest run by an experienced coroner... The inquest and court information seemed quite specific about the calibre being a .38; would the difference from .36 be too close to measure in 1892?

SimonTuffGuy 02-26-2008 12:16 AM

My girlfriends pap has a handgun similar to that in his collection! It's a beauty!

Good luck with your paper.

BillM 02-26-2008 12:23 AM

Well---kind of depends on what you want to call a 38!!

38 short/long colt, 38 special bullet diameter .357-.358
38 S&W, 38 colt super police, 38/200 british service, .360 bullet
38WCF aka 38-40 Winchester .400-.401 bullet
36 cap and ball colt mdl 1851, 1862 and others, .375 roundball,
not sure what the conical bullet diameter was.

Also, some are measured on bore diameter, some on groove diameter.

Could they accurately measure the bullet diameter in 1892? Yes

scoutman 02-26-2008 01:13 AM

As noted, the Navy took a .375 caliber projectile, which very probably could have been called a .38. BillM hit it right on the head, as many so called .38 caliber guns took projectiles in the .357 to .360 range. Good Luck

Morgan 02-26-2008 03:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scoutman (Post 17418)
As noted, the Navy took a .375 caliber projectile, which very probably could have been called a .38. BillM hit it right on the head, as many so called .38 caliber guns took projectiles in the .357 to .360 range. Good Luck

Excellent! Thanks to all who took part in this discussion! Very helpful!

lakeside 10-03-2014 04:44 PM

follow on question
 
3 Attachment(s)
On the topic of old paper cartridges, on the shore of a lake, I recently found what I think is an old .36 or .38 caliber bullet.

.357 inches base diameter (slightly out of round)
.75 inches long
101.7 grains

The depression in the base is a spherical bowl. Looks like this bullet was formed by swaging. There is a small rectangular tab at the base and what looks like a second, deformed rectangular tab 180 degrees from the first tab.

The absence of ridges or evidence of crimping marks makes me think it could be the bullet from a paper cartridge. So far I've no luck identifying this bullet. Perhaps it will look familiar to someone on this list?


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