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Old 01-30-2013, 11:14 AM   #91
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And the gentleman who thinks that he can deploy and fire a 1911 faster or more effectively than a double action simply doesn't know what he's arguing about.
LOL. Do you own a shot timer? It seems the likely answer would be "no"....or you never bother to use it for anything other than cooking eggs. Also, your approach to supporting your position is highly amusing (i.e. no facts or proof to support anything you say other than a bare claim that I don't know what I am talking about). For someone who claims to have been a firearms instructor, LE and blah blah blah, you seem to have very little knowledge of how the trigger bar mechanism in a DA/SA works vs. how the trigger mechanism in a single action functions (or you would already know why a 1911 can be deployed and fired more quickly than a DA/SA).

I could spend a good page or two going into the movement of parts in each system, travel distances, differences between long pull pivoting triggers vs. short pull straight movement triggers, and so on and so on which prove as a simple matter of physics that it is impossible for a beretta 92 or sig 226 to be as fast as a 1911...but I don't have to waste that much time and effort as the best pistol shooters in the world took care of that for me over the last 40+ years.

Camp Perry? Dominated by the 1911. IPSC/USPSA limited and limited 10 division? Dominated by the 1911/2011. IDPA? They had to create a sandbox for the other pistols to play in so the 1911/2011 would not consistently thrash them. USPSA has resorted to the same "you can have your own sandbox" approach for non-1911 pistols, IPSC/USPSA open division? Dominated by 1911/2011 pistols.

Basically, pick any pistol competition that involves: 1. drawing from a holster; 2. shooting very quickly, and; 3. shooting accurately. The consistent end result? Dominated by the 1911/2011...so much so that they have to create new divisions which amount to no-1911-allowed sandboxes for the other pistols to play in.

However, this type of competitive shooting surely cannot be used for comparative purposes to any type of self defense scenario. After all, the scoring in those competitions is only based on speed, accuracy and power factor...none of that would come into play in a self-defense shooting....well, other than the speed, accuracy and stopping power parts.

Other than 1911/2011 designs, there are a few pistols that pop up on the respectable end of the pack now and then. Beretta (modded to fire single action only), CZ (single action, cocked and locked carry), Glock (trigger modded to get it as close to the feel of a 1911 as possible) and so on. However, the top of food chain is still always the 1911/2011. Maybe it is part of an anti-Beretta, anti-Sig conspiracy?
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Old 01-30-2013, 03:10 PM   #92
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LOL. Do you own a shot timer? It seems the likely answer would be "no"....or you never bother to use it for anything other than cooking eggs. Also, your approach to supporting your position is highly amusing (i.e. no facts or proof to support anything you say other than a bare claim that I don't know what I am talking about). For someone who claims to have been a firearms instructor, LE and blah blah blah, you seem to have very little knowledge of how the trigger bar mechanism in a DA/SA works vs. how the trigger mechanism in a single action functions (or you would already know why a 1911 can be deployed and fired more quickly than a DA/SA).

I could spend a good page or two going into the movement of parts in each system, travel distances, differences between long pull pivoting triggers vs. short pull straight movement triggers, and so on and so on which prove as a simple matter of physics that it is impossible for a beretta 92 or sig 226 to be as fast as a 1911...but I don't have to waste that much time and effort as the best pistol shooters in the world took care of that for me over the last 40+ years.

Camp Perry? Dominated by the 1911. IPSC/USPSA limited and limited 10 division? Dominated by the 1911/2011. IDPA? They had to create a sandbox for the other pistols to play in so the 1911/2011 would not consistently thrash them. USPSA has resorted to the same "you can have your own sandbox" approach for non-1911 pistols, IPSC/USPSA open division? Dominated by 1911/2011 pistols.

Basically, pick any pistol competition that involves: 1. drawing from a holster; 2. shooting very quickly, and; 3. shooting accurately. The consistent end result? Dominated by the 1911/2011...so much so that they have to create new divisions which amount to no-1911-allowed sandboxes for the other pistols to play in.

However, this type of competitive shooting surely cannot be used for comparative purposes to any type of self defense scenario. After all, the scoring in those competitions is only based on speed, accuracy and power factor...none of that would come into play in a self-defense shooting....well, other than the speed, accuracy and stopping power parts.

Other than 1911/2011 designs, there are a few pistols that pop up on the respectable end of the pack now and then. Beretta (modded to fire single action only), CZ (single action, cocked and locked carry), Glock (trigger modded to get it as close to the feel of a 1911 as possible) and so on. However, the top of food chain is still always the 1911/2011. Maybe it is part of an anti-Beretta, anti-Sig conspiracy?
Stop the arguing! As I said, "it's all in the training"!!!!!!
I can't remember his name but there is a guy who shoots a DA S&W as fast as anyone on earth can shoot a handgun. And yes you are correct the 1911 RULES most of the competitive shooting, but other shooters use other platforms and are VERY competitive.
As for self defence DA RULES!!!
I have yet to be involved in or investigated any defence shooting where DA was a problem. DA is considered 'safer' for the average person to master and use in a life threatening situation.
YOU DO AS YOU TRAIN!!!!
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Old 01-30-2013, 03:40 PM   #93
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And training to shoot in "game playing" events has little relevance to real world social work.

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Old 01-30-2013, 05:28 PM   #94
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And training to shoot in "game playing" events has little relevance to real world social work.
social work - I like that

I have never shot another person. I'm very confident that I would without hesitation if I identified someone to be an imminent threat to family, self, or innocents. If the armed assailant was a family member, holy crap, what would I do then? The only thing I can really do to prepare IMHO is to know my firearm, know it well, and become as close to marksman as I can reasonably get. All other variable are well outside of what I can imagine in terms of a SD situation.
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Old 01-30-2013, 08:30 PM   #95
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I agree that training is definitely a central issue considering the shutdown of fine motor skills that occurs with the adrenaline surge that accompanies any self defense situation. Many people do not understand the degree to which the brain goes on autopilot and tends to repeat training patterns.

I had to watch a video from a convenience story robbery that resulted in two fatal shootings not long ago. Two armed robbers entered the convenience store and there happened to be an older gentleman in the store who was a retired detective - he still carried his S&W .38 for self defense. He managed to shoot the first bad guy twice and then exchanged fire with the second one from across the store. Once his revolver ran dry, you could see him swing out the cylinder, carefully dump the spent casings in his hand and then put them in his coat pocket before pulling out a speed loader and reloading. The second bad guy was wildly popping off rounds at him the entire time. After reloading, he managed to take 2 shots, hit the bad guy once and then he was struck by a 9mm round in the head which was fatal. The second bad guy was severely injured and caught by responding units less than half a block from the store.

You watch that video and wonder why in Hell he didn't just dump the brass, reload and resume firing. He was a reloader. Every time he went to the range that was the exact process he went through -- shoot the rounds in the revolver, carefully secure the brass, reload and then shoot again. His brain went on autopilot and that's exactly what he did in a real self defense situation. To a very high degree, you will do as you train. This is also why people who line up at the range and then dump 15 straight rounds into a target often end up having to explain why they shot someone 15 times in self defense. Autopilot.

The above also makes me wonder about 5 shot snub nose revolvers as primary self defense carry tools. Obviously, they are really good in terms of concealability and so on but I had to wonder if that guy wouldn't still be alive if he would have been carrying anything that had even 2 or 3 more rounds not to mention what his odds might have been if he would have had a pistol with 13-15 rounds. He was clearly a decent shot - he managed to take out the first guy and hit the second one well enough to cause severe injury.

While most self-defense shootings involve under five rounds fired in total and take place at less than seven yard, there are obviously exceptions to the rule -- if you prepare only for the statistical average you might end up severely regretting it (even if that regret is short lived). Also, how you train can get you killed even if you are a damn good shot.

There is another story that is worth relaying when it comes to training and how things can play out in the real world. I recently represented an officer involved in a fatal shooting while he was trying to take a man with outstanding warrants into custody. The guy he was trying to arrest was a considerably larger man - he was at least 6" taller and had 125-150lbs on the officer. He physically resisted and the officer played it exactly by the department manual - warned him and then pulled his taser and tagged him with it - it didn't take. The guy grabbed him and in the struggle they ended up on the ground with the bad guy on top.

He wrestled the taser away from the officer and started beating him about the head and face with it. He actually even managed to get a partial direct contact shock on the officer with the taser. At this point, the officer managed to pull his Glock 22 and fire one round, point blank into the guy's midsection. The guy yelled "you f@@king shot me" but continued to fight and tried to grab the gun. The officer fired again blowing a hole through the guy's hand which was over the muzzle. The guy continued to fight. The officer fired again - another round into the midsection. The guy still continued to fight. Another round into the chest. At this point the guy stood up and backed away two steps. He then began cussing the officer and decided to have another run at him - when he advanced, the officer shot him yet again, center mass. At this point, he decided to call it a day - he turned and walked almost 20 feet before he collapsed and died before paramedics arrived. Five shots total, four center mass. The department issued round was 165gr Golden Saber.

I suppose there are several things you could draw from the above but there are a few that stand out: tasers don't always work; even if you do everything by the book you can still end up almost getting beaten to death; some people are not all that deterred when shot or even when shot several times; and, the human body may be fairly easy to kill but it can be damn hard to stop quickly (especially before you are severely injured).

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Old 01-30-2013, 08:59 PM   #96
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In my qual, an officer "catching" his brass was dsisqualified and had to start over again. Thank God we finally got rid of revolvers.

I was taught to "continue firing until there is no longer a threat."

I was also thoroughly trained in the use of a baton. I realize batons are "out of vogue" today, but my baton prevented the need for use of my sidearm many times.

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Old 01-30-2013, 10:36 PM   #97
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I have seen several people at the range do basically the same thing with ARs and semi-auto pistols. They get to the end of a mag then hit the mag release, carefully pull the mag out, secure it in a pocket, pull out another mag and then load it into the pistol -- the whole process taking about 20 times longer than it should. Now, I realize that high cap mags are not exactly inexpensive at the moment but let the damn thing fall to the ground and slap in another one. Saving your pmag from a couple dings is not worth ruining your reloading skills.

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Old 01-31-2013, 12:56 AM   #98
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I have seen several people at the range do basically the same thing with ARs and semi-auto pistols. They get to the end of a mag then hit the mag release, carefully pull the mag out, secure it in a pocket, pull out another mag and then load it into the pistol -- the whole process taking about 20 times longer than it should. Now, I realize that high cap mags are not exactly inexpensive at the moment but let the damn thing fall to the ground and slap in another one. Saving your pmag from a couple dings is not worth ruining your reloading skills.
Agreed. Fortunately, after emptying a 15 round or larger magazines you normally have a lot of time to reload.

If not, you should not have passed qualification.
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Old 01-31-2013, 01:21 AM   #99
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USE THE METHOD THAT WORKS FOR YOU. WHAT YOU'RE COMFORTABLE WITH. . There, done!

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Old 01-31-2013, 01:43 AM   #100
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lol...valid point. However, they do the same thing with 6 round sub-compact mags. Heaven forbid we scuff up a mag's basepad a little.

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