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Old 05-12-2011, 04:49 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Dillinger View Post
A handgun round at 25 yards is going to be, in fact, highly ineffective against most male assailants, merely because of trajectory and penetration ability.
At 25 yards, your average pistol round has lost maybe 30-50fps, which is about like the difference between 1" in barrel length, so in the grand scheme of things hardly different at all. Also, trajectory-wise, we are talking like an inch off of POA. Even at 50 yards, the difference in velocity is like the difference between standard and +P ammo, and the POI is still only a couple inches lower than normal. Neither are particularly prohibitive to stopping the fight, at least relative to the shooter's ability to get the rounds there in the first place.

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A pistol is a short range defensive weapon.

25-50 yards is a long gun's realm.
JD
Not that I'd argue a pistol is as effective as a long gun, or that one should necessarily expect longer-range shootouts, but most of the time all you've got immediately available is a handgun. If someone is spraying lead from across the street and all you've got is a handgun but need to end the fight, the ability to put still rounds on target is very useful. But, there have been lots of instances, specifically in LE, in which the officer's ability to make quick, accurate hits with their handgun at ranges beyond normal (say, 20 to even 50 yards) have made or broken the difference.

So, I practice it all. I can knock down three short pieces of 2x6 (about 5.5" wide and 8-10" tall) in about 6 seconds or so from 50 yards, standing with no supports (i.e., resting my forearms on the hood of a car would only help). At the same time, within a few yards I can also double-tap COM on three targets in about 2 seconds. I even practice quickly acquiring targets and shooting offhand to up to 100 yards. I also carry a clamp-on bipod in my EDC bag and with it can regularly (say, about 4 out of 6 shots) make hits on the 12" gong at 200 yards, and easily 5/6 shots on a 12" gong at 150 yards. So, especially with an accurate handgun and a better-than-average shooter, rounds *can* be put on target with a handgun if necessary. As far as power goes, even at 200 yards my standard loads hit like a hot .45 at the muzzle :P .

Now, of course, I absolutely concur that practice slow-fire at longer handgun ranges will in now way prepare you for defending yourself at close range. I will also point out that 7 yards is not "close range" for defensive handgun shooting. Most rooms indoors won't even allow for true 7-yard shots from muzzle to target. If you want to practice close range, we're talking 1-2 shots. Learn what it feels like to empty a handful of rounds at these ranges. Try to practice shooting while using retention tactics like shooting with your elbows out and the weapon close to your chest (a standard tactic to prevent your handgun from being grabbed). These are not only what you are far more likely to experience in the real world, BUT they are also the most dangerous situations in that the threat is very immediate (as opposed to a guy across the street from whom you have the option of running or hiding).
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Old 05-12-2011, 04:59 PM   #22
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Not so much, and doubtful.

If confronted with a situation where someone is "spraying lead" at 25 or 30 yards away you are going to be keelhauled if you just pull your weapon and start blasting. Sure, you might save the day, but Monday Morning Justice is going to most likely rip you a new one unless you are in Texas or a similar jurisdiction.

Looking at statistical data it's readily evident that handgun exchanges beyond about 12 yards are ineffective at ending a threat on a baseline that is acceptable, which is a key reason most every police car is equipped with an AR these days. Accuracy and stopping power.

If you shoot tea cups at 100 yards and do it all day long, great. That doesn't mean it's applicable to a real life shoot out scenario.

Ever seen the video of the Keho brothers random police stop shooting? That one video will immediately put to rest any issue as to whether you need to be able to quickly and effectively hit a center mass target at close range.

A pistol is used to fight with until you can get a rifle - Jeff Cooper

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Old 05-12-2011, 06:03 PM   #23
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Some of the best drills I have ever seen come from competitive shooting...
IPSC, IDPA, USPSA, SASS, etc...fantastic training

Developing speed & precision (ala Jerry Miculek) are KEY to putting rounds downrange to take out targets/OP4.


Multi-gun speed-handling drills are VERY handy...being able to pick up anything you own and use it correctly from the first shot.
My wife always wonders why I bring at least 8-20 guns to the range...its because I want to keep familiar with ALL.
A second's hesitation can cost...so its better to be ready.

Its like anything else...practice, practice, practice...if you want to be good at it.
When it comes to combat, if you've practiced enough, the skills will be there when you need them the most.
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Old 05-12-2011, 06:08 PM   #24
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Most of the members have made some real good points!
Accuracy at a more distant range is important also.
But self defence shooting the practice and the principles are slightly different.
First of all, it will have to occur in most cases without much notice or distance.
There will be little time for aiming alignment of the sights or going through the proper shooting technique, trigger pull, sight alignment and other such things that when we have time to be accurate we concentrate on with each shot.
For increasing your skills in that area not saying you shouldn't also practice your distance shooting. But for self defense 10 yards and in is suggested. Examples for training at: 1 - 3 - 5- 7 - 10 Yards.
The best I can explain it, you must practice, practice, practice, to become proficient at quick evaluation, response, and shooting for self defense. Accuracy! In this case for example would be hitting the center box on a TQ-15 type target. Or the 8 or 9 ring in a B-27 Target. Not stacking the bullets on top of each other. I guess I would say from experience you must develop "muscle memory" for each shot without the detailed use of the sights. And it is important to choose the weapon you will be carrying and train with it. It is hard to develop the muscle memory I am speaking about if switching weapons all the time. Yes smooth trigger pull and fundamentals are still important but must be performed quickly and smoothly. Smooth is Fast!So you as mentioned by the previous members, learn to grip the pistol correctly without the need to reposition and draw from the holster or where ever you carry your personal protection weapon. Finger out of the trigger guard always until on target. We also do push offs also as one training exercise. That is when you are within a yard of the target. (The simulated Attacker) Push off with your week hand, take a couple of step back draw and fire.
Warning! If you practice this? Once you push off on the target *draw your week hand back against your chest while drawing and then firing. Never shoot only one round. When you get more comfortable with this type of training. Practice 2 center mass and one to the head. Or 2 center mass and one to the groin! Just in case the attacker might have a vest on. Anyway that is some ideas for you.

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Old 05-12-2011, 06:26 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dillinger View Post
If confronted with a situation where someone is "spraying lead" at 25 or 30 yards away you are going to be keelhauled if you just pull your weapon and start blasting. Sure, you might save the day, but Monday Morning Justice is going to most likely rip you a new one unless you are in Texas or a similar jurisdiction.
Nobody said anything about "just pulling my weapon and blasting." I can think of plenty of situations in which my ability to put down a target from such a distance would be considered justifiable defense of myself and loved ones.


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Looking at statistical data it's readily evident that handgun exchanges beyond about 12 yards are ineffective at ending a threat
If you are referring to the shooters' ability to put rounds on target, that is simply a matter of training and a little talent. Unfortunately, a lot of officers barely shoot more than a handful of times per year, I once saw a guy walk up to the rifle range with what appeared to be a Glock19. He started rapping off about one round per second, offhand. At first I thought he was just function testing or something, then I looked out and saw he was actually connecting with the 12" 100yd gong more often than not! Lots of IPSC competitions require shooters to rapidly hit COM-sized targets at even 30 yards, and lots of people do this well. Hell, I was in a competition once in which the last target was about a 4" square at maybe 15 yards, and most of the experienced shooters got it just fine. That equates to effective hits at easily two or three times that distance. These kinds of shooters are among a minority for sure, but they exist and it only takes a reasonable amount of dedication to be among them.


If, alternatively, you are referring to the capabilities of the cartridge, than you should understand that the velocity difference between ~3 and 12 yards is less than the typical velocity spread of most factory ammunition. That is, the difference between 1015 and 1000fps, or 1425 and 1405fps, is quite irrelevant.

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on a baseline that is acceptable, which is a key reason most every police car is equipped with an AR these days. Accuracy and stopping power.
I agreed with that. But, I also said most of us, more often than not, won't have a rifle available when we need it.

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Originally Posted by Dillinger View Post
A pistol is used to fight with until you can get a rifle - Jeff Cooper
The counter-example is simple: "but what if you don't have a rifle?" Woulda-shoulda-coulda only gets you so far. I'd rather train to make hits with the weapon I am likely to have available at any given time.



All that said, do practice true close-range combative shooting before you dedicate a lot of time and effort to marksmanship. But, do not discount the ability to make hits on target at further distances.


Some good reads:
Combat Shooting
Long Range Handgun Shooting
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Old 05-12-2011, 07:09 PM   #26
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You seem to be missing the point.

Have you, in all your competitions, training, reading, and experience been in a force on force situation where you needed to shoot someone?

Because it does not matter what you shoot like when it's a calm day at the range, conditions are wonderful and you have not a care in the world.

IPSC competitor, Range Master or Grand Master of Flowers isn't the same as a real life encounter.

At 25 yards the chances of a realistic situation where you had to be involved are so astronomically high I can't even think of how many zeros would be attached.

What, you think some guy is going to walk out of the bank with his AK chattering up the street and you are going to draw quick, duck behind the newspaper bin and put him down with a headshot?

I am sure you and everyone on this site can come up with scenarios where you think you might need to be able to shoot dimes at 25 yards, but the fact of the matter is that the likelihood of having to do it, safely, and under duress, will be an entirely different realm.

When I went to Thunder Ranch they a little surprise for wise assess that thought they were all that and a bag of chips. They set up a scenario shoot, walked the shooter through the scenario, so they had the scope of the shoot, knew their target, the distance and the whole nine yards.

They then told the shooter to explain to them their goal, in the case I got to see it was shoot a man-sized target at about 15 to 18 FEET who was holding a pistol at waist level. You have all seen the target at the range I am sure.

The instructor then told the guy he was on a timer, which obviously added some thought process induced stress, that his weapon would have one round and one round only and had him wait about 3-4 minutes before he had him make ready.

Just as he gets the word go, dudder grabs his pistol out of his holster, sidesteps into the doorway to confront the target only to find that the target was now a friendly and at the same moment another instructor set off a hand held air horn the likes they use on boats.

Weapon discharges, misses the target and we all got a good laugh. The lesson was that it did not matter how sure the shooter thought he was, how prepared he thought he was, fear, adrenaline and a subtle change in targets through all that planning and bravado right out the window.

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Old 05-12-2011, 07:33 PM   #27
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No, I get your point. I am not describing scenarios where I think I *could* make perfect hits at extended ranges. I am describing scenarios in which one would be justified in doing that. Additionally, I am not saying perfect hits are easy. I am, instead, saying that hits on target at ranges beyond 12 yards are absolutely possible with a well-trained individual behind the trigger.



Off the top of my head, I can remember that Officer Borders made several successful hits with his .45 averaging about 10-20 yards away, after having been wounded, and against a shotgun-wielding assailant, including the deliberate head shot that finally stopped the fight (which took place at 20+yd, as the officer was across the street from behind his squad car, and the assailant was behind a car parked in the opposite driveway).

http://www.lawofficer.com/article/training/officer-down-warriors-sacrific

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Old 05-12-2011, 07:49 PM   #28
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There are always going to be exceptions, no matter the rule.

If I spent every day at the golf course wearing stupid clothes and practicing putting, I too could sink a 50 foot putt. That doesn't mean I could do so in a playoff for a green jacket.

Damn near every handgun round in the world is on it's UP at 25 yards, from bore axis, most are between 1.5" and 2.5".

If you train to hit something at that range, your muzzle is going to be pointed LOWER than it would be at closer ranges because of trajectory.

The converse of raising the barrel of your rifle by inducing forward cant on the scope via elevation to compensate for negative trajectory at longer ranges.

Also as I stated in my first post a "threat" at 25 yards, unless you are a soldier/LEO or the target of an assassination attempt, is much more likely to be defused and/or avoided than a "threat" at, say, 10 yards.

It's totally personal preference. If you want to train at 25 yards with your pistol and you are a perfect shot doing so, great. More power to you. You put in the work, you have achieved a skillset that is admirable.

For the AVERAGE shooter, the kind who doesn't put thousands of rounds down range a month, or even a year, learning to take long, slow, steady, timed and patient shots on a target at 25 yards for their own self defense purposes isn't practical or what I would personally consider a sound training stance.

YMMV.

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Old 05-12-2011, 08:28 PM   #29
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Oh I absolutely agree with your last statement!!! My only point is dont completel discount the ability to make those oddball shots. Im sure the officer in the abovr article never thought he would actually need to skip shots off the pavement, nut in this case his ability to put those additional three shots into his attackers torso moght have prevented his attacker from getting more aimed shot.

But yeah you are absolutely correct that anything but close-range rapid fire is almost superfluous for "everyday" civilian defensive roles. Im just saying the ability and knowledge to make the wider varieties of shots is still worth something .

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Old 05-12-2011, 08:33 PM   #30
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On that we do not disagree. My approach was from a self defense standpoint.

I do agree having the ability to hit things at further distances is a good one to have, but the ability to put a lot of lead, in the center of a target at close range, is really what pistolering has become for the "average" shooter.

And FYI I used to work with a guy who was former SWAT in Anderson, Ca. Had a medical and had to retire very early in his career, but he told me part of their training was to learn how to skip both shotgun and pistol rounds under a car and pop balloons during training. So they do practice it in Anderson, Ca. anyways.

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