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Old 09-08-2011, 01:52 AM   #21
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It was the shortcoming of the 9mm caliber that was the problem then. I agree the expanding bullets do more "damage" now-a-days, but I still think 9mm lacks the instant shockwave/concussion that 45 or 357 will do to instantly disable or kill. Even the more "lethal" 9mm ammo today falls short of those.
The ability of a service caliber handgun to, in your words, "instantly disable or kill", is pretty close to nonexistent. In the words of Andy Stanford, quoted verbatim from his book "Surgical Speed Shooting":

"Handgun bullets do not possess magical powers. They merely poke holes in things. The permanent wound track created by the bullet represents the primary means by which any projectile affects a living target."

"Which brings us to caliber. Though a slightly larger bullet may very well be marginally more effective, taken in the context of the wound effects discussed above, it actually offers no discernible advantage at service pistol velocities."

"Have no illusions; compared to most centerfire shoulder weapons, any service-caliber auto pistol or revolver is a second-rate weapon to take to a fight... In the words of Thunder Ranch Director Clint Smith, "A handgun is what you use to fight you way to your rifle or shotgun."

When I looked at it in the light of, "they're all inferior", I decided on the caliber that allows me to accurately put the most amount of fire on the target in the shortest amount of time, and for me, that caliber is 9mm. For you it could be something else.

By the way, Andy's book, "Surgical Speed Shooting" is a very good read. I would recommend it to everyone out there.

Just my thoughts on the subject.

-Fred
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Old 09-08-2011, 03:39 AM   #22
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I look at it from a physics standpoint. Yes, the expanding bullet putting a hole in a vital organ is the primary means of death/lethality. On top of that, you can get the shockwave/concussion energy that that travels well beyond the poked hole. Look at a bullet travelling through water and see the shockwave blasting out beyond the small bullet path.

Force = Mass X Velocity

Looking at "Golden Sabre" Ammo designed for damage:
45 Auto is 185 grain X 1140 fps
357 Magnum is 125 grain X 1220 fps
9mm is 124 grain X 990 fps

Assuming all the energy is absorbed into the chest cavity without expelling out the back, the 45 Auto will add the biggest heavy-weight punch & body blow concussion on top of poking the biggest hole.

The 357 is the best penetrator with a smaller diameter and faster speed. It's the most likely to blow out the backside and not distribute all its energy into the body.

Another way to look at it is assuming you're wearing steel plates and have no hole poked. The 45 will still knock you down with the mightiest blow.

The mere 55 grain of the 223 rifle raises its force factor by much increased velocity which will also have that devastating shockwave too.

That's why I truly believe from a physics standpoint that the 45 Auto would have put down the badguy in the Miami Shootout by knocking him down with a heavy-weight punch. Today's more lethal 9mm ammo would have made a bigger hole inside, but not neccessarily a bigger punch for the more instant shockwave trauma/disabling effect.

I am interested in the book you mentioned "Surgical Speed Shooting". I'll ask my wife if she can download it on her ipad.

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. Ruger 10/22 22LR (x2)
. Rossi 1892 Lever 357
HANDGUNS:
. Remington R1 & R1S 1911 45 ACP (x2)
. Springfield Armory XDm 45 ACP
. Beretta Px4 Storm 45 ACP
. Beretta 92FS 9mm (x2)
. Ruger Vaquero 357 (x2)
. Ruger LCR 357
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. Ruger 22/45 22LR
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Last edited by Marthor; 09-08-2011 at 12:09 PM.
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Old 09-08-2011, 12:12 PM   #23
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I'll do the pictures and review of the new Beretta Px4 Storm 45 Auto when I get a chance.
Well, here's a picture of my new Beretta Px4 Storm 45 Auto:


I'll do a video review later! =)
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SHOTGUNS:
. Remington 870 Express 12g
. Mossberg 500 12g
. Stoeger Coach 12g
RIFLES:
. Remington 700 300 WinMag
. Bushmaster M-4 223
. Ruger Mini-14 223
. Ruger 10/22 22LR (x2)
. Rossi 1892 Lever 357
HANDGUNS:
. Remington R1 & R1S 1911 45 ACP (x2)
. Springfield Armory XDm 45 ACP
. Beretta Px4 Storm 45 ACP
. Beretta 92FS 9mm (x2)
. Ruger Vaquero 357 (x2)
. Ruger LCR 357
. Ruger LCP 380
. Ruger 22/45 22LR
. Walther P22 22LR
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Old 09-08-2011, 12:33 PM   #24
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Looks nice! Does it have the rotating bolt design like the 9mm version?


Next time, consider a strictly fun gun, perhaps a black powder revolver. I looooooove my Remington replica by Pietta:

Maybe one of these lil buggers: North American Arms NAA-1860-4-CB 1860 EARL 4 C&B

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Old 09-11-2011, 10:53 AM   #25
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you don't own a .22 target pistol? drive to the gun store and buy one............go now! no more forums or gun talk until you got one ok
I wanted a .45 for my first gun but I decided to start the right way and I just ordered a Ruger Mark III Target .22 and I can't wait to get it.
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Old 09-11-2011, 02:26 PM   #26
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I still have to wait for the 30 day limit in Virginia, but what has my fire lit right now is the Springfield XD 45 ACP 5" barrel with 13 capacity. I want it really bad!

Even after getting that, my addiction won't be satisfied for 45 ACP. I still want the Ruger SR1911, the M&P 45 and the HK USP 45 as well. I'm suddenly all about 45 Autos. Maybe this 30 day wait thing is "good".

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SHOTGUNS:
. Remington 870 Express 12g
. Mossberg 500 12g
. Stoeger Coach 12g
RIFLES:
. Remington 700 300 WinMag
. Bushmaster M-4 223
. Ruger Mini-14 223
. Ruger 10/22 22LR (x2)
. Rossi 1892 Lever 357
HANDGUNS:
. Remington R1 & R1S 1911 45 ACP (x2)
. Springfield Armory XDm 45 ACP
. Beretta Px4 Storm 45 ACP
. Beretta 92FS 9mm (x2)
. Ruger Vaquero 357 (x2)
. Ruger LCR 357
. Ruger LCP 380
. Ruger 22/45 22LR
. Walther P22 22LR
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Old 09-12-2011, 04:16 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marthor View Post
I still have to wait for the 30 day limit in Virginia, but what has my fire lit right now is the Springfield XD 45 ACP 5" barrel with 13 capacity. I want it really bad!

Even after getting that, my addiction won't be satisfied for 45 ACP. I still want the Ruger SR1911, the M&P 45 and the HK USP 45 as well. I'm suddenly all about 45 Autos. Maybe this 30 day wait thing is "good".
I don't like this 30 day crap. You should be able to buy as many as you want when you want.
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Old 09-12-2011, 04:56 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marthor View Post
I still have to wait for the 30 day limit in Virginia, but what has my fire lit right now is the Springfield XD 45 ACP 5" barrel with 13 capacity. I want it really bad!
I am a happy owner of the geezer barreled XD45 in a nice shade of OD green. Buy lots of target ammo; it is very fun to shoot at the range. I haven't had a jam yet and have tried Blazer brass, PMC, Federal, Aguila, and some Remington UMC (?) in the big yellow box. I haven't tried the aluminum cased ammo yet; i think it might not react well to the aluminum targets.

BTW, no wait that i know of and very few restrictions on black powder stuff. Order through the mail if of legal age. I bleve it is still a "deadly weapon" as far as concealed carrying goes, though.
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Old 09-14-2011, 03:48 PM   #29
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Still debating what 45 Auto I'll get next. Here's my current list...

XDm-45 4.5" 13rd capacity
Grabagun.com SPRGFLD XDM 45ACP 4.5" BLK 13RD Online Gun Store
With the special offer will include holster and 5 magazines & 2 pouches. Total package will run about $625 including FFL and shipping.

FNP-45 4.5" 15rd capacity (DA/SA)
Grabagun.com FN FNP USG 45ACP 4.5" MBLK 14RD 3MAG Online Gun Store
I'll need to buy another magazine and a holster. So, that pushes the total price up another $100. Total package would be about $750 including FFL and shipping.

Another Px4 Storm 4.2" 10rd capacity (DA/SA)
Advantage of being compatable with my current new mags. Advantage of not having to do the ship thing with an FFL. $50 off offer. Total package from Bass Pro would be $575.

I'm eliminating the M&P and Sig p250 because they don't improve on capacity and are both DAO. I'm eliminating the HK & Sig P220 because of price.

I want more capacity and DA/SA for about $650 total.
FN doesn't quite do it in price
Px4 doesn't quite do it in capacity
XDm doesn't do it in DA/SA

It would be cool to double up on my Berettas like I did with my M9s, but the Px4 only has 10 capacity. The FN is perfect except for price. The XDm is the best deal overall, except for lacking SA.

Is there anything available that can give me exactly what I want? I want at least 12 capacity, holster, 4 mags, DA/SA for about $650 total package.

There's a gunshow coming up next weekend, not this weekend. If I can beat those benchmark prices like finding the FN for less, then it's a go on that. I also learned that my Virginia Conceal Permit gives me a pass on the 30 day wait law! So, I'm back in the market with a terrible fever for 45s. I will probably wait for the gunshow though unless someone knows of another model that totally fits the bill of what I'm looking for?

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SHOTGUNS:
. Remington 870 Express 12g
. Mossberg 500 12g
. Stoeger Coach 12g
RIFLES:
. Remington 700 300 WinMag
. Bushmaster M-4 223
. Ruger Mini-14 223
. Ruger 10/22 22LR (x2)
. Rossi 1892 Lever 357
HANDGUNS:
. Remington R1 & R1S 1911 45 ACP (x2)
. Springfield Armory XDm 45 ACP
. Beretta Px4 Storm 45 ACP
. Beretta 92FS 9mm (x2)
. Ruger Vaquero 357 (x2)
. Ruger LCR 357
. Ruger LCP 380
. Ruger 22/45 22LR
. Walther P22 22LR

Last edited by Marthor; 09-14-2011 at 03:50 PM.
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Old 09-14-2011, 05:27 PM   #30
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I was just looking at the Taurus PT24/7 G2 and the 845. It has 12 capacity, DA/SA and cheap price, but unfortunately I'm reading way too many quality problems about Taurus and their customer service. I'm going to have to eliminate it.

Still looking for other options though to compare.

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Marthor's Gun Page ...on Facebook
SHOTGUNS:
. Remington 870 Express 12g
. Mossberg 500 12g
. Stoeger Coach 12g
RIFLES:
. Remington 700 300 WinMag
. Bushmaster M-4 223
. Ruger Mini-14 223
. Ruger 10/22 22LR (x2)
. Rossi 1892 Lever 357
HANDGUNS:
. Remington R1 & R1S 1911 45 ACP (x2)
. Springfield Armory XDm 45 ACP
. Beretta Px4 Storm 45 ACP
. Beretta 92FS 9mm (x2)
. Ruger Vaquero 357 (x2)
. Ruger LCR 357
. Ruger LCP 380
. Ruger 22/45 22LR
. Walther P22 22LR
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