Dr. speaks about gunshot wounds - Page 7
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Old 09-06-2012, 09:07 PM   #61
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Interesting.

[BTW long ago (back in the days when almost everyone had .38s) I met Mr. Cirrilo and, when times were changing, exchanged correspondences with Mr. Marshall. I was upset that Mr. Marshall's stopping power stats were ignoring handloads and that .45 Colt was being rated so low. His position made sense I guess, a single instance of a specific load wasn't statistically useful. The calibers that provided the most usable data were the ones that were the most used. So if in a years time you had 40 shootings involving the 9mm you had lots of data, but if only two shootings involved a .45 Colt you had little data. There was also the issue of the circumstances. Do you include in the one shot stop someone shot in the head while they were sleeping, or not? The reluctance of PDs to disclose details about a shooting before a trial made collection of data difficult. What really improved the .45 LCs rating on the charts was Federal introducing the 225 gr. SWCHP round, followed soon after by the Winchester Silvertip and S&W releasing the M25-5. Suddenly non-handloaders had a decent round (vs the old 255 gr. hollow base solid) and Peacemakers began to be heard again. There is also the issue that civilian handloaders tend to be sometimes be better shots and more familiar with their weapons than some civilian who doesn't handload and only shoots a gun a few shots a year. The result is sometimes a more carefully placed shot. That skews the stats.]

The Taylor scale was a very early attempt to provide a numerical predictor of terminal performance. Yes it was designed for elephants, (Taylor made a living shooting them up close) but the numbers are still excellent predictors of overall effect without even getting into bullet type. If your weapon rates as an 8 (or a 3), and the other guy's gun is a 13, you may be about to have a really bad day, unless you shoot first. Let's also note that in our communities when the local PD is confronting someone holed up and armed, what is the first thing they do? Containment, then they bring up the boys (or girls) with big guns, guns that go higher on the Taylor scale. Shotguns, assault carbines, bolt action rifles, even (in some cities) SMGs (yes, not really higher on Taylor, but a cumulative synergy of terminal performance begins to occur with multiple hits in only a few seconds). Point is, if you know it is coming, and you have time, you put the pistol away and get something big.

It is for those occasions we won't have time which we need to think about. Should you really be carrying that .22 short mini-derringer as your only weapon (which I have seen some do)? Or should you be thinking more about how you would like to survive the possible future social interaction with an armed adversary?

Incidentally, that writers comments on pain are interesting to me. I am thinking he had forgotten about the wonder years of the 80s when PCP was almost everywhere and frequently mixed with other chemicals. Sometimes those people literally didn't feel ANY pain. I am aware of one woman (Riggs Rd., PG MD, back in the 80s) who stabbed herself with a huge butcher knife over and over to kill the demon inside her (while surrounded by a ring of police who weren't sure quite how to handle that) and then went on to slowly disembowel herself pulling the intestines out with one hand while hacking with the other, while still standing and talking for the next half minute or so. Good old Lovely (PCP and high grade marijuana in a blunt) and a little alcohol. I have heard of other similar incidents. Don't waste your time trying to pain compliance someone like that if they are attacking you. Stop them in the most efficient method at your disposal.

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Old 09-06-2012, 10:15 PM   #62
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What is interesting about the Taylor scale is a 45ACP 230 grain is about the same as a 7.62x39 124 grain while a 223 55 grain is about half.

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Old 09-06-2012, 10:19 PM   #63
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Which is why when the M-16 came out some called it the mouse gun from Mattel. It is also why some soldiers 'up country' stashed their M-16s and began carrying AKs they had taken from Charlie.

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Old 09-06-2012, 11:31 PM   #64
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I'll admit I didn't watch the whole snoozefest, but what I gleaned from the little of it I could stand to endure, and the comments, is that it highlighted some, perhaps, lesser known facts, maybe even a few dispelled misconceptions, about a bullets actual affect on the average human body. If this is an accurate gaging...

I dont see any value in this at all. I'm not carrying a gun to kill someone, I'm doing so to protect myself no matter the outcome. If my attacker survives, so be it, good for him/her, as long as I have a form of self protection, I'm confident in my chances. It's all circumstance based, and the mind's control over reaction supersedes any ability of the body to survive a gunshot.

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Old 09-07-2012, 09:36 AM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeyondTheBox View Post
I'll admit I didn't watch the whole snoozefest, but what I gleaned from the little of it I could stand to endure, and the comments, is that it highlighted some, perhaps, lesser known facts, maybe even a few dispelled misconceptions, about a bullets actual affect on the average human body. If this is an accurate gaging...

I dont see any value in this at all. I'm not carrying a gun to kill someone, I'm doing so to protect myself no matter the outcome. If my attacker survives, so be it, good for him/her, as long as I have a form of self protection, I'm confident in my chances. It's all circumstance based, and the mind's control over reaction supersedes any ability of the body to survive a gunshot.
I think one of the more telling portions was when he showed the surveilence video of the one guy getting shot twice in the torso and proceed running and reacting like nothing happened. for quite some time.

I think you actually make one of the best points that comes out of the video. Handgun performance is unreliable and unpredictable. One shot stops are too unlikely. Be prepared to continue shooting, and reassessing the threat. Don't let your guard down too soon.

I also found it refreshing to see a medical person putting out some pretty good facts, based on statistics as well as what he had seen in an OR. He didn't inject a bunch of anti-gun bs. Just facts he had found.
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Old 09-07-2012, 04:36 PM   #66
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First, for legal reasons, NO ONE carries a gun with the intent of killing someone. If you did, that that makes everything that might follow premeditated. That is why on self-defense matters our ONLY intent is to stop the attacker. Gotta love our legal system and the way we are all forced to double speak.

SSGN-Doc - In my own world I was once involved in a multiple suspect shooting, with multiple police. One suspect was solidly hit in the skull, and the lungs. The other was struck over the sternum and at least 3 or 4 times in the kidney.

The suspect shot in the skull grew angry. Standing he said, 'I can't believe you guys shot me. You bastards,' and touched his head wound (from which flecks of bone and some white pulpy stuff were oozing), looked at the blood and began to approach an officer in front of him and raised his (now empty or he would have quickly caught a few more) fist. He was then wrestled to the ground and cuffed by other officers behind him he hadn't noticed.

The other (now empty handed) still standing suspect meekly submitted to being cuffed and said to us, 'I'm all right. (looking down at his blood soaked shirt) This isn't my blood it's his. Tend to him, I'm fine." We lifted his shirt and showed him the holes in front (and also we checked out the neat cluster of holes over one of his kidneys, nice group) of his chest. He then says, "okay, lemme sit down, could you call me an ambulance. It doesn't hurt, but I guess I should be checked out or bandaged or something."

The weapons used that day were 9mm (a mix of Sigs and Berettas) with JHP ammo.

As you state, "Handgun performance is unreliable and unpredictable."

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Old 09-08-2012, 12:34 PM   #67
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Yes.

During a deployment to Haiti back in the '90s we had several patients that we treated for gunshot wounds.

1 was shot in the back of the neck 5 times with a .22. He was the only one who was not able to walk when brought in. His spine had been bruised, but after a couple of days he was walking, and he continued to improve.

One of the others was a police officer who was shot with his own revolver (a .38 Special with lead wad cutter rounds). His gun was grabbed by a prisoner he was transporting. The prisoner shot him in the legs and buttocks with three rounds before the gun stopped working (that's right, a revolver "jammed". of course Haitian gun maintenence is not great, and the revolver was an OLD military and police model.) He was able to walk. Only one bullet remained inside one of the buttocks.

The worst was a UN soldier who was shot 5 times with a .38 two rounds hit his liver, one hit his femur, and nicked the femoral artery. Another round hit his right lung, and another had hit his hand (possibly one of the other rounds that hit his body elsewhere after penetrating the hand. The blood loss from the liver and femoral artery were the hits that put him down. When we first responded he had a thready pulse of 160, and BP was 78/P and was not responsive.

A fourth patient was hit twice in the abdomen with a .45 using FMJ. One bullet passed through, the other remained in the abdomen. No major vessels hit, no other structures besides bowel hit. He walked from a taxi to the compound gate.

All of these victims survived. All of them stopped doing what they were doing once they got shot. The UN soldier got the worst of it. Lost a leg after being medevaced, lost his hand and had a long recovery process, according to the updates we got.

Blood loss was indeed the biggest factor that I saw. Blood filled organs and major arteries, when hit seem to be the most critical to how fast a person deteriorates in performance.

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Old 09-09-2012, 01:34 PM   #68
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As a paramedic and a gun owner, I appreciate this video on several fronts. It was very informative from a professional viewpoint. It was also nice to see an anesthesiologist give a lecture on gunshot wounds without making a political statement on gun control. Most of the ones that I have attended have been mostly anti-gun. Thanks for posting this video.

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Old 09-10-2012, 08:15 PM   #69
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I was thinking about this article as I was reading this thread. The charts tell alot, by these test standards, about some of the high dollar premium bullets. An earlier poster had mentioned this in line with the Dr's video.

I've often wondered about the marketing tactics of ammo makers and their old buddys in the firearms media. Bullets, if we buy all we read, are worse than TVs, cell phones, computers, etc. After six months or so they are out of date! No good! Washed up! Won't work anymore! But wait we got a new one and it's the best. $30.00 for ten rounds. Surely you think more of your families safely than to spend $25 for 20 rounds of that old out of date stuff you're using now.
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Old 09-16-2012, 04:57 PM   #70
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All this talk about not being able to get reliable test data because ballistic gel doesn't vary as a body would, well I have a solution. Gather up everyone in the pen and have a lottery for them. The person drawn gets shot by a round and then we see how it performs. Anybody agree?

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