Dr. speaks about gunshot wounds - Page 6
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Old 09-03-2012, 05:03 PM   #51
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I guess this goes into the randomness of gunshot wounds. I stood 3 feet away from a friend as he was shot point blank in the neck with a 25 auto. The round past between his esophagus and trachea. The bullet hit his carotid and PUSHED it out of the way. He was released after 2 days of observation and a single stitch on either side of his neck. Rediculous luck but also shows how what should have been fatal wasn't.

Edit: jugular

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Old 09-04-2012, 02:32 AM   #52
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Something about "shot placement " that should be realized, is that no matter how much you or I practice practice practice, under the stress of a life threatening situation, you will be lucky to hit your target let alone where you want to hit him.

Anyone who has shot competitively knows how much their shot patterns widen out just from the stress of having a timer on them.Imagine how much wider that pattern is when your life is suddenly threatened.

I decided on .40SW as the combination of capacity and power that I felt comfortable with as a daily carry.That choice will be different for everyone, but be sure you are carrying enough gun to get the job done with less than perfect shot placement.

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Old 09-04-2012, 03:59 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Coyotenator View Post
Something about "shot placement " that should be realized, is that no matter how much you or I practice practice practice, under the stress of a life threatening situation, you will be lucky to hit your target let alone where you want to hit him.

Anyone who has shot competitively knows how much their shot patterns widen out just from the stress of having a timer on them.Imagine how much wider that pattern is when your life is suddenly threatened.

I decided on .40SW as the combination of capacity and power that I felt comfortable with as a daily carry.That choice will be different for everyone, but be sure you are carrying enough gun to get the job done with less than perfect shot placement.
Now that you have chosen a weapon in .40 S&W your next choice is ammunition. Are you one of the JHP proponents that will accept unreliable penetration, or are you one of the ball users that wants reliable penetration even if it risks over-penetration? Don't answer that yet.

As we saw in the video the Dr appeared to be addressing a class of pre-hospital care-givers. I submit he wasn't telling them anything they didn't already know. People with multiple gunshot wounds routinely walk out to the truck just as some lucky people walk away from unrecognizable piles of scrap metal in highway crashes. Others leave the medic wondering what killed them since nothing seems severe enough to have caused death.

So back to the ball vs JHP question. Some convention many years ago decided that signatory nations should agree to use ball ammo only, and forsake what were known as dum-dum bullets at the time. The reason given was because dum-dum bullets caused too much suffering. I submit to you that dead people don't suffer. Was the dum-dum less likely to kill or was it solely designed to maim?

In the calibers of the time I suspect it was designed to cause greater injury, but not necessarily increase the death rate. Knowing that a battlefield injury causes more harm to the opposing army than a battlefield death, it may have even been used to intentionally cause injury while avoiding a kill shot.

Over the years firearm efficiency has increased and bullet design has improved, so things are different these days, but in a handgun caliber the difference isn't that great. The ball/JHP choice now boils down to this. Do you want a big hole or a deep hole?

I keep thinking about my first New Years Eve in rescue work. One man was gut shot 5 times in a bar fight and walked out to the truck. The other victim, an unintended target, was hit in the wrist and darn near died. Luck. One got an artery nicked and the other had 5 bullets lodged in a beer gut.

Other than suicides, the only handgun inflicted deaths I worked during the first 15 years or so were .44 mags, or .22 long rifle. We did have a deputy kill his personal truck with a .41 magnum, but I don't know if that counts for this discussion.
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Old 09-04-2012, 11:24 PM   #54
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I did some testing in admitedly crude test media( I soak telephone books with the covers and slicks removed and stack them in a box) just to get an idea of the damage different carry loads did. I do this about every 2 years to try new loads that come out.

Based on this test which I admit is flawed I am currently carrying Winchester 180grn PDX1 in my XDSC.

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Old 09-05-2012, 12:19 AM   #55
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I don't care about bullet weight or 9mm vs. 45 acp, you all should be shooting until the BG is down then shoot them in the head. For me it is all roundcount and shot placement, shoot until they drop or the slide locks back then reload
That is terrible advice unless you want to spend the rest of your life in prison. Once the perp is down and no longer a danger the shot to the head will be ruled as murder, and rightfully so.
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Old 09-05-2012, 05:43 PM   #56
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Lesson learned? All pistol rounds are junk. Use an Ak

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Old 09-05-2012, 07:09 PM   #57
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My two cents.

Pistols tend to make holes, like a drill. Some holes are big, some are small, depends on which caliber. If that is what you want, then fine, use a pistol. If however you want to vaporize (liquify actually) soft organs, then use a projectile traveling over 1800 fps. For most of us, this means if going to a shooting, bring a rifle.

Something magical happens at that speed which all the slower hollowpoint pistol ammo can never duplicate. Essentially all of the surrounding cells in the soft organ release themselves from their neighbors. This shows up on hospital X-rays as a white patch. Generally speaking no one survives a wound with a large white patch in their chest.

The zone of influence for this phenomena is dependent upon projectile velocity (i.e., the more over 1800 fps, the larger the area) and caliber (i.e, a 30 slug at 2300 fps produces a smaller sphere of organ devastation than does a .50 caliber slug at 2300 fps). The trick for shooters is to have all of this energy stay inside the target and not be wasted exiting the other side.

Experienced large game hunters who have autopsied (i.e., cleaned) prey shot with different calibers observe this effect more often than most civilian doctors. When all you can find in the chest is red soup, your bullet has done its job.

A very, very, experienced hunter named John Taylor came out with a scale applicable to this phenomena a very long time ago. Multiply diameter of bullet in inches times muzzle velocity times bullet weight in grains divided by 7,000. Based on human autopsies of shot people I have witnessed, investigations I have done of human shootings, and dozens of autopsied deer, for shooting humans, discard as questionable anything that scores lower than 15. Yes, the scale is so old it qualifies as antique, and it has problems if taken out of context (i.e., a slow moving bowling ball gives an incredibly high number) but apply it to bullets and even today it is very applicable.

Yes your 1911 is better than his .32. But my .454 (slow recovery time and all) Casull (with a 200 gr. XTP) makes your 1911 look like his .32. Of course his sister's 30-06 (with 110 gr. varmint ammo) tilts the scale back that way.

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Old 09-06-2012, 03:24 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coyotenator View Post
I did some testing in admitedly crude test media( I soak telephone books with the covers and slicks removed and stack them in a box) just to get an idea of the damage different carry loads did. I do this about every 2 years to try new loads that come out.
Actually, this is very similar to what I do, when enough T-books are

available. It's admittedly not perfect, but, IMO, a valid test of

a pistol caliber, all the same.

Superc, while your observation of the effect of hydroshock is very valid,

IMO one must maximize a pistol's potential by spending as much

terminal energy inside the target.


Contact with the hip-bone will do that in a human, and there may be

some deterrent factor involved, when a BG sees me aiming for the

jewels under his left hand...
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Old 09-06-2012, 06:40 PM   #59
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Therewolf - Nothing I wrote contradicts with expending the energy inside the target.

I actually know someone who had occasion to do a shot into a pelvic bone. .38 Special 4 inch, US Govt issue +P+ ammo. Yes, the subject fell down instantly. Unfortunately he was still conscious (screaming for his mom and crying). Since all the attacker had was a knife the tactic worked. Had he had a gun, probably two people would have been on the ground.

IMO, a better tactic would have been center of chest area mass.

You indicate you are living in Florida so I am thinking your opportunities to test bullets inside actual living flesh and bone are limited. A few decades back when I had a job that required me to be armed I experimented on deer with pistols of various calibers. Yes, I have (over and over) heard the nonsense that deer are somehow tougher than humans. It is BS. A 180 lb mammal full of adrenalin is a 180 lb mammal full of adrenalin. The results, in every normal pistol caliber I tried were less than impressive. Yes, the aforementioned .38 +P+ did kill deer sometimes a little faster than mere +P, but nothing you really wanted to stake your life on.

[Yes, I had a back up shooter with a normal deer rifle who took a head shot if needed.]

Yes, sometimes the results improved if a rib was struck first. Cleaning (autopsying) the deer showed that in some cases the bone would fragment and thereby create additional projectiles which would take their own trajectories and do their own damage to what they hit (usually lungs). Sometimes however the bullet just bored a hole through the bone before going on to the heart area.

As I stated, pistol bullets just make holes. If you place them just so (heart, brain) the mammal usually drops. The issue is the speed they drop. I long ago observed that heart shot animals, even with large caliber 'magic' hollowpoints sometimes run a distance after being shot. This is true of humans also. Our military regularly issues posthumous medals to our soldiers who accomplish this. Police journals/logs/reports are also full of instances of this. Find/buy a copy of Street Survival. There are some photos in them. One comes to mind of a young man shot 33 times, than ran a half mile and stole a car before a 12 gauge finally put him down. Look at his photo and note the cluster of holes in his sternum. How could a deer ever be tougher than that?

Yes, a hollowpoint helps. What it actually does is spread out, thereby making a larger hole. This accelerates hemorrhage. Some (black talon comes to mind) were/are designed to make multiple sharp edges so that each edge also sliced instead of just tearing or deforming the flesh it passed.

Hardball ammo in .35 or larger caliber tends to over penetrate humans, this is a given. Front of chest to back of back a human is sometimes only 10" (or less) thick, but side to side we can be 2' thick (or more). You can not predict exactly which direction your next shooting will be traveling. Nor can you predict the size of the next person to point a gun at you. You are however legally and morally liable for what the bullet does if it exits your subject.

My own solution in the civilian world is a very fast (over 1800 fps) large bullet of lighter than recommended construction. All the energy stays in the target. Nope, never had need to shoot a human with it TG (what a court nightmare that would be). However, I have tried it on about 30 deer. No exit wound, liquid contents, deer drops like a toilet seat. Plop. It sits around 29 on the Taylor scale. In a pistol! Where does your bullet sit?

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Old 09-06-2012, 07:21 PM   #60
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http://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/handgun-stopping-power/?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_conten t=StoppingPower-text&utm_campaign=StoppingPower
I am throwing this in to balance the argument.
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