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Old 08-20-2012, 12:41 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by KalashnikovJosh View Post
What do members here think of flat nosed solid projectiles vs. HP and vs. round nosed ball?

.40 S&W ball seems to typically come in flat nosed format,while its harder -but not impossible- to find the same profile in 9mm.
Many people say it's no longer relevant, but the Hatcher Theory of Relative Stopping Power universally gave good marks to the semi-wadcutter design within the different calibers.
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Old 08-20-2012, 01:05 AM   #32
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I really wish someone would do a controlled test of a 9mm with the common 110 gr hollow point and the .357 magnum with a 158 gr hollow point loaded to the same velocity and fired out of a test barrel to show the difference in penetration. It would make this stuff a lot easier to understand for many people.


I would absolutely agree that a 115gr vs 158gr going at the same velocity,the 158gr would have more penetration.
I understand that between projectiles with equal energy,the one that has more mass will be "better".

I'm not an expert of any stripe,but I understand that energy is important to make momentum.I understand that something with more mass will have more resistance to a change in its inertia as well,and would also have more momentum,given equal energy imparted to it.

However,what I sort of don't grasp is how a projectile that is different in mass only by at most a few dozen grains (1 grain = 0.064 gram) as in the example of 115gr vs 158gr could have such a tremendous difference in inertia as to affect terminal penetration to the degree that one becomes clearly superior over the other.

What I do grasp is that given similar weights,say a 125gr .357 vs a 124gr 9mm,but different velocities,.357 going 1500 to 1600fps ( ) and the 9mm doing about 1200fps,with resulting energy being strongly in favor of the magnum,I think it would be clear that the magnum has a pretty hefty advantage.
Around 300ftlbs more advantage that can be used to build and maintain inertia.

So here you see velocity giving more energy -and thus for sure more penetration- to bullets of almost the same size.

Like I said,I'm no expert,but I can see that energy is as important as mass.

As for me,I think I'll still be sticking to solids no matter what caliber I choose to use.
The most memorable part of that video was the .40 JHP's failure to penetrate even given what was excellent (or lucky) shot placement.
.40 s&w is not light on energy,mass,or diameter,in fact,some consider it a perfect blend of all 3 (short of the 10mm,of course).
Over and over and over again I keep seeing and reading of incidents where HP's of all sorts in all kinds of calibers from all different kinds of designs both old school and modern do absolutely unpredictable things in real life shootings.

I'd probably go with some kind of flat nosed hardball in .45 around 180-200gr,I'm gonna stick with 165gr flat nosed hardball in .40 (Remington makes the hottest and best shooting in my gun),and I'll probably stick with 9x19 nato at 124gr for my 9s.The 147gr flat nose looks good too.

But I think this video was the straw that broke the camels back for me as far as JHP and HP designs are concerned.
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Old 08-20-2012, 01:07 AM   #33
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Many people say it's no longer relevant, but the Hatcher Theory of Relative Stopping Power universally gave good marks to the semi-wadcutter design within the different calibers.
Julian Hatcher?

I read one of his books that a friend lent me,it was really old but it was still very informative.

One of the most poignant lessons I took from it was relating to rifle ammo and how during peace time everyone wants more,lighter ammo and weapons- but when wars break out,they want the ability to penetrate cover and don't care how big/heavy the ammo and gun is.
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Old 08-20-2012, 03:27 AM   #34
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I just want to point out the fact, that being in the moment when you have to use your gun. Your adrenaline will be pumping so you may not react the way you think you will. So if you're in your home and get woken up in the middle of the night. You shoot at somebody and miss. If your using FMJ's, how many walls will the bullet go through? Or how far into the neighbors house? Keep in mind the police officer that taught my CCW class told us the a 9mm FMJ will go through 13 sheets of sheet rock. 9mm HP will only go through 1 sheet. The average wall only being 2 sheets. So you may get more penetration with FMJ, but as a whole HP may be safer. Especially if you have children or live in close proximity to your neighbors house. Or if you're in a public area when you have to defend yourself.

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Old 08-20-2012, 11:23 AM   #35
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I just want to point out the fact, that being in the moment when you have to use your gun. Your adrenaline will be pumping so you may not react the way you think you will. So if you're in your home and get woken up in the middle of the night. You shoot at somebody and miss. If your using FMJ's, how many walls will the bullet go through? Or how far into the neighbors house? Keep in mind the police officer that taught my CCW class told us the a 9mm FMJ will go through 13 sheets of sheet rock. 9mm HP will only go through 1 sheet. The average wall only being 2 sheets. So you may get more penetration with FMJ, but as a whole HP may be safer. Especially if you have children or live in close proximity to your neighbors house. Or if you're in a public area when you have to defend yourself.
The cop was wrong.

HP 9mm will still go through lots of layers of drywal, because hollow points don't react the same in drywall as they do in flesh, because they rely on hydraulic pressure from blood and body fluid to force them open. Most will act very similar to a FMJ in dry objects.

Just something to think about.

Here's a link to some info on penetration tests of several types of ammo.

http://theboxotruth.com/docs/bot1.htm

Pretty much any round that will penetrate deep enough into a badguy to shut him down will penetrate several layers of drywall. You can't get something for nothing.
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Old 08-20-2012, 11:46 AM   #36
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Wow! 2 eye openers in one day. Thank you for correcting me. Now I'll yell hit the deck if I ever fire my gun in the house. Hydro shock may be safest bet since it all went through 7 in .35 and 8 in 9mm FMJ.... May be safe to assume 9mm hydro shock would go through less? And I definitely will take careful aim as I can, if ever in the situation. Just goes to show you that you can't truly trust people no matter what there profession

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Old 08-20-2012, 09:05 PM   #37
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This is why I use a shotgun as my primary home defense weapon.

A good load of buckshot from a 12 gauge,IMHO, is probably the closest thing to a "one shot wonder" next to running a man down with a pickup truck that your gonna get.
This isn't hyperbole either,and while its still not a 100% guarantee,nor do I equate a 9 pellet shell of 00 buck to a 9 round burst from a 9mm SMG,having 9 pellets that each usually penetrate well over 12 inches in tests strike someone at once is almost (notice I said almost) guaranteed to hit something vital -likely multiple vitals- and might also be enough of a wallop to cause someone to drop from sheer shock.

Yes,we've heard the stories of people loaded with PCP taking multiple rounds of 00buck and still fighting,but in the context of a discussion primarily about pistol caliber ballistics but mainly about "stopping power" in general- the shotgun wins hands down.

Ballistics gelatin may be a relativity poor substitute for what projectiles may do in a human torso,but this will ruin your day:


Also in the same context we've talked about the Moorish (Moro) uprising in the Philippines as being the reason why the army adopted the 1911,well,the fact is they were having issues stopping those people with the .30-40 Krag.

But, as I've heard it,the 12 gauge shotgun represented by the 1897 Winchester was the best thing going for stopping inebriated,fanatical Moro tribesmen;before they could chop a troopers head off with their barong.

Yet,compared to handgun projectiles,buck pellets penetrate alot less dry wall,interior fabrications, etc.Because of their spherical shape and lighter weight they also tend to have much less effective range,giving you even more of a margin for error.

Theres been alot of banter about using a shotgun for home defense and how its not good to use it for a search because of tight spaces.In general,this can be negated by technique(Taylor underarm,low ready,NOT leading blind spots with your muzzle,etc,etc)but to be honest if I KNOW someone is in my house I don't have children to go get and can stay "bunkered up" till the cops get there- if I have to search cause I'm not sure,thats why my shottie has a sling and my sidearm along with a light is in the nightstand table.

But if I'm going to a fight thats going to be primarily within the confines of a building or some other close space,I want my 12 banger.Period.
As we've seen in this video,handgun wounds might not be enough to stop a person intent on harming you,and you don't want to rely primarily on their effects -in ANY caliber- to save your life: put 'em down with buckshot.

You want real close quarters "stopping power" in a small arm- grab your 12 gauge.

And JFYI,for you AR guys,your 5.56 is also pretty decent about being contained by drywall with certain projectiles,but not as good about it as buckshot.I would honestly consider most rifle rounds inferior in true "stopping power" in close quarters to a shotgun anyway.

You also should know where your neighbors are.My closest neighbor is but yards away,but on every other side then that I have lots of space.
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Old 08-22-2012, 03:19 AM   #38
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I don't care about bullet weight or 9mm vs. 45 acp, you all should be shooting until the BG is down then shoot them in the head. For me it is all roundcount and shot placement, shoot until they drop or the slide locks back then reload

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Old 08-22-2012, 04:44 AM   #39
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Very interesting stuff. Thanks for sharing, I'm definitely ditching the hollow points. .40 or .45 that's all I shoot but still.

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Old 08-22-2012, 10:44 PM   #40
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The point of defensive handgun is to stop the threat. Not necessarily kill. I'd rather need a second jhp than have an exit wound sending liabilities past the bad guy.

The statistics that count are how often the initial gun shots stopped hostility.

I read all the time about break in thwarted by the mere presence of a fire arm being shot at the bad guy.

Many tell of guys running away and bleeding out shortly after. Often being shot at stops baddies with guns because generally they are bullies.

The highly trained bad guy who is going to triangulate your position when you rack your shot gun and rush you presents a rarity that also means you are probably SOL anyway.

Same with methed out freaks.

Most of you will never need your gun. Of the times you do the vast majority can be handled with decent training using 9mm.

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