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Old 08-14-2012, 07:57 PM   #11
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I use a .45 in the hopes the BG will be hurt more by the

bullet, than I am by the recoil...

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Old 08-15-2012, 02:37 AM   #12
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Default Yup.

That whole lecture re emphasizes the important of good hits.

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Old 08-15-2012, 03:12 AM   #13
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Yep, shot placement and multiple shots. If your crackhead @ss wants to break into my home, lead is FLYING!

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Old 08-15-2012, 04:32 AM   #14
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Seeing what that .40 S&W JHP did and the talk about blood loss being the mechanism by which most GSW's acheive their effects,makes me think about switching to hardball.You'll more likely get 2 holes to bleed from,and you wont risk that failure to penetrate.

I know that JHP is designed to make a bigger hole and effect more tissue,but it's really starting to seem to me to be very erratic and even unpredictable in performance,even the modern designs.

I believe that your handgun is only as good as you are with it- in other words you need to make good placement no matter what it is,but even with good placement if your using JHP it might do what was seen here,with the most famous example of a JHP coming up short being the 1986 FBI shootout where a 9mm slug failed to penetrate an extra inch or so to reach the heart of one of the participants who was still able fight after being hit like that.
I'd bet a round of nato ball would have went right thru.

And before people poo-poo 9x19,remember that the bullet in this video that stopped short was a .40.

I'm starting to think that the relative consistency of ball compared to the erratic performance of JHP,and coupled with good placement might be the best way to go.

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Old 08-15-2012, 08:56 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OldManMontgomery View Post
That whole lecture re emphasizes the important of good hits.
It stressed the need for good penetration more than it stressed the need for hitting the K5 areas. Look at the film of the .40 S&W that barely penetrated lung tissue. Shot placement is 3 dimensional, and getting it deep enough is the important one.

We had a disgruntled ex-employee in Orlando not long ago shot "multiple times in the chest" by what appears to be a gruntled* employee protecting his job and his customers. The assailant was still up and attempting to run when he got creamed by a car. If he can run, he can shoot, and that is officially a bad thing.

A similar thing happened in that Ocala internet cafe shooting video that is linked to in this forum. Did the assailants leave? Yes they did. After running out of the store with bullet holes in them they both made it to the hospital under their own power.

*I know, but I always wanted to use it after hearing the George Carlin routine.
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Old 08-15-2012, 09:05 PM   #16
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Handguns are not magic ray guns.
Attempting to make them into such with magic bullets and caliber worship doesn't change the fact that they throw a relatively small chunk of lead at a relatively moderate speed with relativity moderate force into a comparatively large mass of tissue and unless they hit something vital,they will not force someone to go down.

I'm really beginning to think the expensive boutique boxes of 20 rounds of "premium" ammo is just mere profiteering.Even with the most advanced computer designed JHP,it seems like these projectiles do very erratic things in real fights that in no way conform to how they perform in gel tests and such.But ball does the same thing over and over with pretty much consistent results.

If I punch a hole in any of the major arteries of the chest of a guy determined to kill me with a round of ball 9x19,it's gonna be better for me then if I hit him with a .45 JHP "premium" round that stops short for whatever reason.
Alternatively,a hole punched in the same artery in the same place by a fully expanded projectile will likely do the same thing if the projectile was ball.Sure,the hole might be a little bigger,but seriously,its still a hole in a major artery.

Am I making any sense here or am I way off base?

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Old 08-16-2012, 01:52 AM   #17
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worth watching!

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Old 08-16-2012, 10:38 AM   #18
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Even with the most advanced computer designed JHP,it seems like these projectiles do very erratic things in real fights that in no way conform to how they perform in gel tests and such.
Ladies and Gentlemen, we have a winner. Because tissue densities vary to such a large degree, there is no way you can look at a gel test to determine what a projectile will do in the real world.

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If I punch a hole in any of the major arteries of the chest of a guy determined to kill me with a round of ball 9x19,it's gonna be better for me then if I hit him with a .45 JHP "premium" round that stops short for whatever reason.
That would have been a better comparison if you had used projectiles of somewhat similar weight. A 9x19 ball in the aorta beats the daylights out of a 9x19 JHP that never made it past the sternum... or in too many cases the zipper on a winter coat. To be fair about it, if you assume equal penetration of equal caliber rounds, the expanded JHP beats ball ammo. The problem is that you won't get equal penetration.

There is another major advantage of ball ammo over expanding projectiles. In most auto-loaders there is a higher degree of reliability with ball ammo. Another advantage, but not a major one, is that given an equal caliber, ball is often heavier. Heavier is officially a good thing unless you are going for distance.
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Old 08-16-2012, 07:28 PM   #19
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Ok heres a conversation I've been wanting to have for maybe a decade.

A question- does 9mm ball tend to give consistent,deep straight line penetration?

And in what configuration?

Is the 115gr range fodder adequate,or is it best to stick to something like 124gr NATO or maybe even 147gr?

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Old 08-17-2012, 05:47 PM   #20
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Quote:
A question- does 9mm ball tend to give consistent,deep straight line penetration?
No, if you're talking about bio-targets, but it will be much more consistent than a JHP. It all depends on how you define consistent. Even in gel targets rounds from the same lot will have different paths and penetration depths.

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Is the 115gr range fodder adequate,or is it best to stick to something like 124gr NATO or maybe even 147gr?
My personal thought is within reason the heavier, the better. It's called inertia. The heavier it is the more difficult it is to deflect an object in motion from a straight line. I also think there is a bit less quality control in range ammo, and if my life may depend on it I want quality... lots of quality.
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