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Old 08-07-2013, 06:11 PM   #81
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If you were really a LEO you would know from experience that a 9mm leaves considerably more walking wounded than it does corpses.
Have you any statistics to back that up. Or is it just your opinion. Thought so.

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One of them was hit 12 times and was still firing his mini-14 at the agents and hitting them.
How do you know the outcome would have been different if he was hit by another calibre. ?

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Old 08-07-2013, 08:33 PM   #82
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If you were really a LEO you would know from experience that a 9mm leaves considerably more walking wounded than it does corpses.
If you doubt I was a LEO's feel free to contact the Colorado Springs Police Department and check. I worked there 25 years, 9 months, and 11 days.
I have been doing training, testing, and research in the area of terminal ballistics for about 25 years now. You are simply wrong. You base your opinion on myth, emotion, and misinformation, plane and simple!
Nice try, but attacking my credibility will not change reality!
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Old 08-09-2013, 01:02 AM   #83
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If you doubt I was a LEO's feel free to contact the Colorado Springs Police Department and check. I worked there 25 years, 9 months, and 11 days.
I have been doing training, testing, and research in the area of terminal ballistics for about 25 years now. You are simply wrong. You base your opinion on myth, emotion, and misinformation, plane and simple!
Nice try, but attacking my credibility will not change reality!
and what is your thoughts on the ability of a 9mm to stop using a good, quality hollow point? i was always under the impression that the 9's bad rep for stopping power came from the use of ball ammo.

i've always felt the 9mm was an adequate round....but i don't have any real experience with its ability to stop an attacker. i do know that the vast majority of those shot with any pistol in modern times are now surviving (though many of those are injured for life). i'm sure this mostly credited to vast improvements in trauma care and surgery.
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Old 08-09-2013, 07:31 AM   #84
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I prefer to use my .50 desert eagle, intimidating nd prob scare them off haha
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Old 08-09-2013, 10:22 PM   #85
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and what is your thoughts on the ability of a 9mm to stop using a good, quality hollow point? i was always under the impression that the 9's bad rep for stopping power came from the use of ball ammo.

i've always felt the 9mm was an adequate round....but i don't have any real experience with its ability to stop an attacker. i do know that the vast majority of those shot with any pistol in modern times are now surviving (though many of those are injured for life). i'm sure this mostly credited to vast improvements in trauma care and surgery.
We transitioned to the 9 in 1988 from our 357 wheel guns. We had a choice to keep our M19's and I was torn but went with the 9. We were issued the Federal 9PB load, 115gr standard pressure load MV approx 1130 FPS, and it worked reasonably well. But after the Metro Dade FBI shootout we went to the Winchester 147gr load MV approx 950 FPS, much to my protest. This was a worthless load. It worked the same a 38 spl 158 RN!!! It did not expand and it just punched a hole the same as an other non expanding bullet. I went back to the 357 (against policy but approved by my Shift Commander). I tried to get them to drop this load for several years and after the terrible performance MANY times they began to listen to me and others.
I convinced the 'powers that be' to try the Winchester 127gr +p+ load (1285 FPS out of all three of my guns) and we have never looked back. It made our 9 in to 15 shot 357's. I went back to carrying the 9. The actual shooting results were outstanding, and they continue to be.
To answer your question. With modern 115gr to 127gr defence loads the 9 is as good as any other caliber and better than most when you consider ALL the variables, especially for CC. I have not had a chance to have a look at the new 135 gr loads first hand but from what I see they appear to be very good.
If you have a gun in 357, 40 or 45 and you shoot it better than any other stay with it (hit probability trumps everything else), but if you can shoot the 9 as good or better I would recommend you go with the 9, especially in the 'little' guns!
Hope this helped,
Jim
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Old 08-11-2013, 04:44 AM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimRau

We transitioned to the 9 in 1988 from our 357 wheel guns. We had a choice to keep our M19's and I was torn but went with the 9. We were issued the Federal 9PB load, 115gr standard pressure load MV approx 1130 FPS, and it worked reasonably well. But after the Metro Dade FBI shootout we went to the Winchester 147gr load MV approx 950 FPS, much to my protest. This was a worthless load. It worked the same a 38 spl 158 RN!!! It did not expand and it just punched a hole the same as an other non expanding bullet. I went back to the 357 (against policy but approved by my Shift Commander). I tried to get them to drop this load for several years and after the terrible performance MANY times they began to listen to me and others.
I convinced the 'powers that be' to try the Winchester 127gr +p+ load (1285 FPS out of all three of my guns) and we have never looked back. It made our 9 in to 15 shot 357's. I went back to carrying the 9. The actual shooting results were outstanding, and they continue to be.
To answer your question. With modern 115gr to 127gr defence loads the 9 is as good as any other caliber and better than most when you consider ALL the variables, especially for CC. I have not had a chance to have a look at the new 135 gr loads first hand but from what I see they appear to be very good.
If you have a gun in 357, 40 or 45 and you shoot it better than any other stay with it (hit probability trumps everything else), but if you can shoot the 9 as good or better I would recommend you go with the 9, especially in the 'little' guns!
Hope this helped,
Jim
Thanks Jim. always glad to hear from "Street" vets about what works best. Can I PM you a few Questions from this 53 Y.O. "Rookie" Aux LE...??
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Old 08-12-2013, 03:30 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by JimRau View Post
We transitioned to the 9 in 1988 from our 357 wheel guns. We had a choice to keep our M19's and I was torn but went with the 9. We were issued the Federal 9PB load, 115gr standard pressure load MV approx 1130 FPS, and it worked reasonably well. But after the Metro Dade FBI shootout we went to the Winchester 147gr load MV approx 950 FPS, much to my protest. This was a worthless load. It worked the same a 38 spl 158 RN!!! It did not expand and it just punched a hole the same as an other non expanding bullet. I went back to the 357 (against policy but approved by my Shift Commander). I tried to get them to drop this load for several years and after the terrible performance MANY times they began to listen to me and others.
I convinced the 'powers that be' to try the Winchester 127gr +p+ load (1285 FPS out of all three of my guns) and we have never looked back. It made our 9 in to 15 shot 357's. I went back to carrying the 9. The actual shooting results were outstanding, and they continue to be.
To answer your question. With modern 115gr to 127gr defence loads the 9 is as good as any other caliber and better than most when you consider ALL the variables, especially for CC. I have not had a chance to have a look at the new 135 gr loads first hand but from what I see they appear to be very good.
If you have a gun in 357, 40 or 45 and you shoot it better than any other stay with it (hit probability trumps everything else), but if you can shoot the 9 as good or better I would recommend you go with the 9, especially in the 'little' guns!
Hope this helped,
Jim
thanks for the info!
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Old 08-12-2013, 03:10 PM   #88
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Thanks Jim. always glad to hear from "Street" vets about what works best. Can I PM you a few Questions from this 53 Y.O. "Rookie" Aux LE...??
Absolutely, we old fly boys have got to take care of each other!!!
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Old 08-12-2013, 04:19 PM   #89
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Without reading through 3 pages of posts, I'll offer my personal HD perspective:

1) 12ga- This is a $200-500 gun (add another $500-1K if you want the 'Cadillac' version) that will have your opponent out-gunned (in your home base) about 99% of the time. Works great in both urban and rural settings, handles threats in every size or weight, and is just plain versatile. A 12ga probably won't be the most fun or sexy option, but it's going to be the most pragmatic nearly every time. And 20ga is arguably as good for most folks.

2) AR-15- This isn't always the best urban option. And sure, you could make a case for some 30-cal rifle variety...but a 5.56 is fast, accurate, and tends to get the job done quite well at every range CQ-200yds...beyond that, you might ask for a superior caliber...but you're really asking for trouble if you're shooting a 'threat' at that range.

3) Handguns- 9mm or better, period. Handguns are fine home defenders. They're more concealable and mobile than longer guns. 380acp and smaller has its place, but not as a HD option in my opinion. Depend on whatever platform is ultra-reliable and performs like a champ for you...every time. 9mm is fine, so is 357mag/38sp, 44mag, 40sw, 357sig, 10mm, 45acp, etc. Depend on a gun that will perform well in your hands and suits your environment/potential threats. It's really just that simple.

People often overthink this stuff. The best 'on paper' isn't always what's best for you (your skills, your home/environment, etc). I'm a big fan of 12ga, 5.56, 45acp, and 9mm...in that order. I shoot my XDm45 a ton, so that's first in the HD pecking order when it comes to handguns. The contingencies would be a CZ 75b and BHP...both 9mm, and both get worked regularly at the range.
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