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Old 08-06-2013, 09:18 PM   #71
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Yes there is. It is called reality, and facts. These 'numbers' are meaningless unless you consider MANY other variables. The amount of R&D put into defense ammo in the last decade or two have made the old theories, myths, and misinformation obsolete.
If you were really a LEO you would know from experience that a 9mm leaves considerably more walking wounded than it does corpses.
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Old 08-06-2013, 10:19 PM   #72
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If you were really a LEO you would know from experience that a 9mm leaves considerably more walking wounded than it does corpses.
actually i think the stat is 80% of people shot with a HANDGUN of any kind currently survive....not that they aren't messed up for life.

i think in self defense...as general principle...the theory is STOP vs KILL?

a 22 has been proven to be capable of killing....but its stopping power is what people question....will you shoot the attacker, then be stabbed to death....to have the attacker wonder off and quickly die after.....is this a successful self defense?

in a self defense scenario, i would just want to stop them as quickly as possible...their demise is not my primary goal.
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Old 08-06-2013, 10:34 PM   #73
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actually i think the stat is 80% of people shot with a HANDGUN of any kind currently survive....not that they aren't messed up for life.

i think in self defense...as general principle...the theory is STOP vs KILL?

a 22 has been proven to be capable of killing....but its stopping power is what people question....will you shoot the attacker, then be stabbed to death....to have the attacker wonder off and quickly die after.....is this a successful self defense?

in a self defense scenario, i would just want to stop them as quickly as possible...their demise is not my primary goal.
By walking wounded I mean exactly that. The majority of people in my county that got hit by 9mm's were actually walking to the truck when we got there. There was no way in the world they were out of the fight.

Go back to the Miami FBI shootout. One of the shooters was hit 12 times and still returning fire, and no, there was no chemical enhancement involved. What was he hit with? He was hit primarily with 9mm with a few .38 Specials. The only decent firepower they had was lost to inertia during the crash. Sure, rounds have improved since then, but when you start with a turd all the polish in the world isn't going to make it anything more than a turd.
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Old 08-06-2013, 10:50 PM   #74
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My wife and I have identical SR9c pistols. 18 rounds with the hi cap mags. We can grab either pistol and no questions as to controls or handling. Consider what your wife is going to do if you are not home and she has to grab the nearest pistol. Does she have time to stop and think how does this one work? We chose the one she could handle best.

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Old 08-06-2013, 10:51 PM   #75
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By walking wounded I mean exactly that. The majority of people in my county that got hit by 9mm's were actually walking to the truck when we got there. There was no way in the world they were out of the fight.

Go back to the Miami FBI shootout. One of the shooters was hit 12 times and still returning fire, and no, there was no chemical enhancement involved. What was he hit with? He was hit primarily with 9mm with a few .38 Specials. The only decent firepower they had was lost to inertia during the crash. Sure, rounds have improved since then, but when you start with a turd all the polish in the world isn't going to make it anything more than a turd.
are you talking about the shoot out where the guys were wearing body armor and blasting everything with AKs? the police were so outfirepowered on that one, many didn't get good shots & when they did...they hit body armor.

the 9mm performs as well as most rounds out ther in penetration tests. the bullet is lighter than some...but the performance is pretty solid with the right ammo.

a crazy, determined and fearless individual might walk through many pistol rounds of any caliber for a short period. the normal person will drop like a sack ofpotatoes imo...or run away in shock...which also represents a stop.

but, i'm with you as well...if its HD for ME...its shotgun with BUCK....i have great confidence in its ability to stop.
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Old 08-06-2013, 11:01 PM   #76
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are you talking about the shoot out where the guys were wearing body armor and blasting everything with AKs? the police were so outfirepowered on that one, many didn't get good shots & when they did...they hit body armor.

the 9mm performs as well as most rounds out ther in penetration tests. the bullet is lighter than some...but the performance is pretty solid with the right ammo.

a crazy, determined and fearless individual might walk through many pistol rounds of any caliber for a short period. the normal person will drop like a sack ofpotatoes imo...or run away in shock...which also represents a stop.

but, i'm with you as well...if its HD for ME...its shotgun with BUCK....i have great confidence in its ability to stop.
I think you are confusing this one with the LA shooting with LAPD. Those guys were wearing armor. Either way, you missed something. One of them was hit 12 times and was still firing his mini-14 at the agents and hitting them.

Please don't get me started on gel penetration tests. I consider them a great marketing tool, and nothing else.
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Old 08-06-2013, 11:45 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by mahall

Weight and speed=knock down power,, don't believe it exist??
No, I KNOW it doesn't exist. "Knockdown Power" is a fiction. Your example of walls and running is ridiculous. It's a simple fact that NO bullet is going to hit the target any harder than your gun hits your hand. Action equals reaction is a badic tenant of Newtonian physics. Does your gun knock you down? Neither will a bullet knock down your assailant.

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Nobody here is a physics major, that is clear.
Well, I don't know about anyone else but you obviously aren't.
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Old 08-07-2013, 01:16 AM   #78
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I think you are confusing this one with the LA shooting with LAPD. Those guys were wearing armor. Either way, you missed something. One of them was hit 12 times and was still firing his mini-14 at the agents and hitting them.

Please don't get me started on gel penetration tests. I consider them a great marketing tool, and nothing else.
well, shot placement really does mean something as well......whether 22 or 45...
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Old 08-07-2013, 09:28 AM   #79
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well, shot placement really does mean something as well......whether 22 or 45...
Very true. So does the size of the permanent wound cavity. If the permanent cavity includes a hole at both ends it's even better. Just never count a man out of the fight until the coroner shows up. Until then, be prepared.
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Old 08-07-2013, 04:26 PM   #80
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I own a 92FS don't plan on buying .357 for home protection so I purchased hollow point 147 grain ammo. Okay the only problem I have is do i shoot to put down or kill shot, that's what I or anyone else can't determined until it happens. If they have a gun well then this is hard to say what I would do. Hope it never happens to me or any of you good people out the, god bless.

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