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Old 12-13-2012, 02:02 AM   #11
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I have, some of their "Standard" models are not that expensive, I've seen some go for around $800, not to mention if you built one just an idea lol. Like any other Manufacture they will have standard models then they will have more expensive models with free float handguards, NiB BCG, and or CHF barrels lol.

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Old 12-13-2012, 02:20 AM   #12
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Not all inexpensive guns are cheap in quality. Few quality guns are inexpensive. Track record means a lot more to me than the price.

Some inexpensive brands have a track record of being hit or miss on quality and I don't feel comfortable buying to recommending them, or will put conditions upon a recommendation.

In ARs companies such as Blackthorne/Vulcan/Hesse have earned a reputation that desreves avoiding. Do they have some customers that got working products? Sure. But a simple google search will provide enough unsatisfied customers to earn them a "recommend avoiding" opinion from many AR owners.

When it comes to surplus guns, again track record can tell you a lot. Is a Mosin Nagant the be all, end all of rifles? Nope. Are they built solid? Sure. But the Mosin comes down to the condition of the individual rifle. My recommendation to most folks is to only buy one that they can check out in person. Buyers also should do research and know that by buying one they are not likely to get gnat's butt sniper accuracy, on par with most modern sporting bolt action rifles. That is largely because of age, condition and quality of available ammo. Someone who wants a beater rifle to take in ugly weather for short distance hunting or to buy for fun and history, should be perfectly satisfied with a Mosin in good condition.

Handguns like Pheonix, Jennings, Bryco etc. have a track record for being cheap in price and unpredictable in quality. While Bersa and RIA have earned reputations for being inexpensive but or reasonable quality and reliablility and may be a better recommendation. I would usually recommend that people save a bit longer to get into the price range for the Bersa or RIA than spend money now on a potmetal gun that will probably need to be replaced much sooner.

I also tend to recommend police trade-ins for peole on a budget. These are usually at least from qulaity manufacturers who will be around for decades and have other existing parts and service departments that can give a gun owner some support. Smith and Wesson, Glock, Sig, and Beretta a handguns can often be found with lots of holster wear and with few rounds fired in good condition for a significant discount over their brand new versions, and still be perfectly servicable.

I think a lot of it can come down to patience. People don't need to spend a ton of money, but few lack the patience to research, shop, and save up for a gun of higher quality.
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Old 12-13-2012, 02:35 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SSGN_Doc View Post
Not all inexpensive guns are cheap in quality. Few quality guns are inexpensive. Track record means a lot more to me than the price.

Some inexpensive brands have a track record of being hit or miss on quality and I don't feel comfortable buying to recommending them, or will put conditions upon a recommendation.

In ARs companies such as Blackthorne/Vulcan/Hesse have earned a reputation that desreves avoiding. Do they have some customers that got working products? Sure. But a simple google search will provide enough unsatisfied customers to earn them a "recommend avoiding" opinion from many AR owners.

When it comes to surplus guns, again track record can tell you a lot. Is a Mosin Nagant the be all, end all of rifles? Nope. Are they built solid? Sure. But the Mosin comes down to the condition of the individual rifle. My recommendation to most folks is to only buy one that they can check out in person. Buyers also should do research and know that by buying one they are not likely to get gnat's butt sniper accuracy, on par with most modern sporting bolt action rifles. That is largely because of age, condition and quality of available ammo. Someone who wants a beater rifle to take in ugly weather for short distance hunting or to buy for fun and history, should be perfectly satisfied with a Mosin in good condition.

Handguns like Pheonix, Jennings, Bryco etc. have a track record for being cheap in price and unpredictable in quality. While Bersa and RIA have earned reputations for being inexpensive but or reasonable quality and reliablility and may be a better recommendation. I would usually recommend that people save a bit longer to get into the price range for the Bersa or RIA than spend money now on a potmetal gun that will probably need to be replaced much sooner.

I also tend to recommend police trade-ins for peole on a budget. These are usually at least from qulaity manufacturers who will be around for decades and have other existing parts and service departments that can give a gun owner some support. Smith and Wesson, Glock, Sig, and Beretta a handguns can often be found with lots of holster wear and with few rounds fired in good condition for a significant discount over their brand new versions, and still be perfectly servicable.

I think a lot of it can come down to patience. People don't need to spend a ton of money, but few lack the patience to research, shop, and save up for a gun of higher quality.
i agree with this 100%. well said Doc.

another point is, do your research before buying. too many times there has been a person post on this forum, and probably many more as well, "i just bout this firearm, ___________, what do you think about it?" or "is it a good firearm?" hmmmmmm........ i think the time to research and check for opinions is before, not after the purchase.

check for reviews and what actual owners are saying, not the gun rags. check and see what they are actually selling for. if said firearm is generally selling for say, $400 and someone is asking $500, then it had better have a bunch of extras with it! if not, then keep shopping around.
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Old 12-13-2012, 02:52 AM   #14
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Two of my favorite weapons cost me less than $150 each. I paid $125 for a Winchester 12-gauge pump years ago. It has gone *BANG* every time I've pulled the trigger and has never missed a beat. Just got a Mosin-Nagant that cost me $129. I'm very glad I'm the one behind the trigger of that rifle. I definitely wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of it, regardless of how inexpensive it was.
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Old 12-13-2012, 03:33 AM   #15
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I own several "mid range" firearms, and most of them have run perfectly for me. I also have a couple of the "cheap" guns, but none of them are junk. point is, I bought what I could afford at the time, or got the less expensive ones in trade for work done for others. Some examples:

Mossberg 185d. My primary slug gun, amde in the 1940s and has dropped several deer in the 30 years it has been inthe family. Dad paid $45 for it in 1983.
Ruger GP100. Sure, I could have afforded the 686 instead, But I couldn't justify the additional cost for the same quality.
Charter Arms AR7. Got it as payment for a barn teardown and cleanup. Last owner had jamming problems, fixed with a good cleaning, magazine adjustment, and adding a slight groove to the bottom of the chamber to lessen the angle that the bullets are fed into it. Zero problems in 5 years since, and al it cost me was time.
Jennings J22. See above fixes for AR7. I only keep it because it was mom's, and it was passed to me when she passed on.
Ruger Mini 14 GB20. Yep, I could have gotten an AR for about $800 more. Thing is, I shot both, researched both, waited 15 years to finally buy one after witnessing a tourture test that a friend of mine conducted between his pre-ban Colt and his pre-ban mini (here in NY, the Clinton AWB is still basicly in full effect). The AR was more accurate, the mini functioned full of mud, sand, andan imersion and drain cylce. The Ar only functioned after the water test, The mud and sand rendered it a single shot until it was cleaned. In all fairness, Colt makes a very good AR, and I had seen some function flawlessly after the same treatment. I mainly bought the Ruger due to it being less expensive, to me more reliable, and I prefer a more traditional looking rifle.

I feel that it is up to the individual what they buy, and that is based on what they can afford. I applaud those who can afford a $3,500 pistol, a $4,000 rifle, and a $5,800 shotgun. That's cool if you can afford it, I can not. All I ever ask is that they don't judge me for owning an $80 shotgun. Yes, you get what you pay for, but sometimes you can get what you need for less.
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Old 12-13-2012, 03:50 AM   #16
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My old Ruger P89 was a great gun but a poorly made decision. I wanted a 9mm full-size handgun. The P89 was the cheapest thing in the LGS at the time and even then I had to put it on layaway because I was a poor college student.

Fortunately for me, the P89 turned out to be a great gun but I really didn't know anything about it. I was a law enforcement major in college looking to improve my poor handgun skills before I graduated.

I don't hesitate to recommend Rugers to new shooters because I know they are rock solid. I really don't know much about the SR series aside from the SR22, so I don't usually comment. I just wish I had done my homework. I was so clueless that I could have just as easily went home with a dud and that is exactly what happened when I went back to by a S&W 22A. Also purchased because it was cheap. Should have help out for a Ruger Mk.II or Buckmark, I just didn't know any better.
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Old 12-13-2012, 04:11 AM   #17
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I haven't noticed much snobbery in the firearms recommendations on this forum. I've been here more than a month and read many, many "what 9mm pistol should i buy" threads. Some people have expressed their lack of faith in some brands or models, but i haven't seen much i would consider snobbery. There was a shotgun thread that was going that way, but i am very slanted toward the Mossberg end of the shotgun spectrum primarily due to my basic uses for shotguns.
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Old 12-13-2012, 04:59 AM   #18
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I don't see gun snobs on the Forum. I do see gun owners who answer question based on their own experiences. Most of us who have been shooting for years and buying guns have learned many lessons we share. I think Axx55 laid it out very well. It is better to buy a quality handgun that is on the used market than a low quality new firearm. It seems many new to shooting sports buy inexpensive firearms and want their choices approved by the Forum members. My advice is, if this is your first rodeo don't cry when you get throwed.
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Old 12-13-2012, 05:54 AM   #19
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Look, I know thee are some inexpensive guns out there that work pretty well, I've owned several of them. But I will also say when looking for a defense weapon that you may call upon to save your bacon then getting out the cheapest should not be the biggest concern. Because there are some really crappy cheap guns out there.
I will say though that you don't have to spend a grand on a quality weapon and even when you do sometimes you can get a expensive piece of crap. There are also higher priced guns out there that are priced because of their name drives the price to a point.

The name of the game is to get the best you can while justifying the cost. I can not justify the cost of a Nighthawk, it's just too expensive. Damn good pistols though. It's the same reason I don't own a high priced vehicle, I just am a little too ill tempered to my old trucks to justify paying for top shelf money. Hell, I don't even own a vehicle made in this century! But I own a couple that I truly believe to be well built and have served me well. With guns I lean around the middle of the pack but they are well built and I trust them 100% of the time. I have to or they serve no use to me. I might cut a range toy a little slack but anything I am going to carry around I have to know it will do what I bought it for no matter what.

So while you may never find a Nighthawk in my collection you will not find a Lorcin/Jennings/Bryco, or even a Highpoint either. Because I've never seen one that I thought was good enough to trust my and my families life to. If that makes me a snob then so be it. Though I can't see anyone that has carried a Taurus (what?!?!?! I do love their PT1911's) being much of a snob. I have one of those dreaded Double Star ARs too. I hear they are not all that great. I love mine though!

When looking for a defense weapon one should strive to get the best they can for what they have or can justify to spend. It's not me or anyone else that has to rely on that firearm, it will be you and it will be your loved ones that have lives that hang in the balance. If you're fine with it then other opinions really don't mean squat. So go get the cheapest Saturday night special or some uber cool Hollywood or (insert groovy video game name here) gun and be happy. No matter what there's going to be some internet expert that will say you made a bad choice. It really only matters to the one that will be using it. Whatever it is I just pray it works when you need it to. That's what matters.
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Old 12-13-2012, 05:59 AM   #20
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i agree with this 100%. well said Doc.

another point is, do your research before buying. too many times there has been a person post on this forum, and probably many more as well, "i just bout this firearm, ___________, what do you think about it?" or "is it a good firearm?" hmmmmmm........ i think the time to research and check for opinions is before, not after the purchase.

check for reviews and what actual owners are saying, not the gun rags. check and see what they are actually selling for. if said firearm is generally selling for say, $400 and someone is asking $500, then it had better have a bunch of extras with it! if not, then keep shopping around.
Man, doing all the research makes it more entertaining for me if I'm looking at something that I'm not all that sure of. If noting else it's good to get out and look around and see what kinds of prices there are out there. Good guns can be found on a budget. I got several..heh
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